Cologne Sexual Assaults IX and David Davies Web Chat

[LumelaMme]

On New Year's Eve women in Cologne were amongst those who were sexually assaulted and robbed in mass attacks.
This is a link to the last thread which has links to all the others.

Some of us have begun a petition asking the government to uphold women's rights and freedoms:

THE PETITION _ Please sign and share
The petition

We also hope that tomorrow, Monday 8th February, David TC Davies MP will be on MN for a web chat between 1pm and 2pm - it should be a sticky on either Chat or In The News. David was one of the few MPs who has shown any interest in this whole issue and who has responded sympathetically to those of us concerned about women's rights in a changing world.

Sport I am mystified too. Though I read Brit's post I did not get I the meaning of her last 2 lines. I understood the preceeding lines were about the ineffectiveness of the Labour policies over long period. Well, some people catch things in different ways.

Apologies Mariscal, apparently I only saw the joke preceding so had no idea what the other bits were about. I thought I must be being more than usually dense but it appears I was absent at this point anyway

This is quite interesting and I feel worth a read www.dw.com/en/underpaid-but-close-to-home-refugees-choose-turkey-over-europe/a-19037573

Some people catch things in different ways? No. It was clearly an unpleasant joke, as picked up by Lumela whose 'ffs' was quite succinct, I thought.

Mariscal thank you.

"He can't adapt to the culture."

Like so many poor souls. Much kinder to be somewhere familiar.

i wonder if rapes have gone up in turkey too?

Emily, I mean I missed it totally as in didn't even get chance to read, so I have no idea what it was all about. Not even me being dense. Justb physically not there

I stil do not know.

454

Never mind, in the scheme of things missing a joke is not really relevant anyway. I thought the ffs was releating to previous joke, that's why I thought I must have got wrong end of stick. You can all have a laugh at me missing the point though!

Interesting about the guy in Turkey, home is home and having the familiar around you is always easier. My DH misses a lot about his home country sometimes.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3439756/We-ll-send-warships-says-Nato-Vessels-set-patrol-Aegean-Sea-attempt-stop-migrants-crossing.html

Fair enough sporting, the nature of it was just odd and unpleasant though, which was why lumela said ffs as far as I could see. Nice to see lumela and twisted picked up on it.

Emily your knee deep in shallow knowledge of the big war. its not a comparable situation.

Relevant article in the new statesman www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/02/pegida-uk-new-face-britain-s-far-right-movement-and-how-challenge-it

In Germany a lot of PEGIDA marchers show the same indignation and upset at being called xenophobic, but still happily march together with far right extremists. Looks like it isn't different here.

No, as I mentioned on the duplicate IX thread - unfortunately PEGIDA are the only ones who are prepared to pick up this mantle. The banners in Birmingham read "don't import rape culture" (and similar).

Interestingly, the French Foreign Legion general who was arrested in Calais was treated exceedingly well inside the police station - he did not "fall down the steps" in custody.

This is a huge fucking problem though - none of us wish to be associated with the far right, but right now I feel like throwing in the towel - nobody gives a shit. Until it starts happening repeatedly on British (read: London) streets to grown-up, middle-class white women - the problem will go unrecognised. Until there's a male-rape centre opening in Islington, we are simply xenophobes.

I will ask my (secular) Turkish friends about the rape statistics in Turkey. As far as Istanbul goes - I remember miles upon miles of tent cities next to the railway lines between Sultanhamet and the airport as far back as 94 goes. I don't know how I feel about it now, would I send my children? Well, they'd stay with secular, modern friends - but if any of you know Istanbul, you know how you stand out like a sore thumb if you're of "western european" appearance.

It's a fucked up world.

In Germany a lot of PEGIDA marchers show the same indignation and upset at being called xenophobic
The same indignation as who, Widow? Xenophobia isn't mentioned in that article. I can only assume that you mean all the posters on this thread who don't agree with you.

Charming.

GraceKelly …… Until there's a male-rape centre opening in Islington, we are simply xenophobes.

I cannot get over how well-organised and supported Stonewall is. Founded by gay actors, supported by gay politicians and trustees from the business world - they seemed totally unperturbed about the Cologne sex attacks when I spoke with them about 3 weeks ago. It occurred to me that we might try approaching the Nat Federation of Women’s Institutes to publicise our petition.

There seems to be 2 threads on the go. I posted about the gang rape in Colne, Lancashire and the fact no descriptions has been published. The police have now issued partial descriptions, although I haven't seen them in the media. www.lancashire.police.uk/news/2016/february/colne-rape-investigation-continues.aspx

I've been doing a bit of reading around rape culture in general and I was having a look for gang rape statistics in the UK and came across this article (it's a few years old), which interestingly and worryling points out that no national statistics for gang rape exist in the UK, gang rape is not recorded as a crime category, only the met police keep specific statistics relating to gang rape.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.html

I think this point is very pertinent to these threads. It all goes back to admitting there is problem in the first place. If gang rape doesn't even have it's own crime category then how will it ever be tackled?

I think rape culture as a whole needs a multifaceted approach if we are ever going to win the war against it. The increase in gang rape is Europe wide and the UK is no different. UK legislation surrounding rape and sexual assault is outdated and needs revised.
The number of young women who aren't even clear of what constitutes rape is worryingly high, a tiny percentage of victims report and an even smaller number of perpetrators are convicted. This has to change. I think a high profile rape awareness campaign is needed. The governments need to send out a very clear message and punishments should be harsh. Current policies and laws are clearly not a deterrent.

I agree itsjust personally I want to see far higher tarifs for rape but in particular I want to see harsh punishment for those that harm children.

It seems to me that educating men who dismiss women as unimportant, and to be used, need to experience consequences. To be frank, that is the only way they will begin to change their behaviour. Putting a brake on sex molestation as seen in Cologne can only be done via the courts imo.

Of course they will still continue with their beliefs and attitudes, but at least it will be in private. Sooner or later they will think twice before they touch.

Upholding laws and carrying them through is what curtailed bad behaviour towards gay people and (going back further) black people. It was not education per se, it was consequences in the form of jail or probation. If a man is fined or jailed enough times, his wife will start complaining and his extended family too. Women will of course continue to be blamed for the poor darlings being jailed, but at least the law of the land will be reinforced each time he reoffends. That actually is education through reinforcing consequences. I cannot see the message percolating through to them in any other way.

I completely agree Britt which is why I said punishments need to be harsh. The crimes have to be reported in the first place though, rape is massively underreported and the reasons why need to be examined and addressed also.

A few years back another MNer posted a comment on the feminism board saying that gay men have come further in 50 years than women have in 150.

Britt mentioning Stonewall has reminded me of that old post.

Interesting link bungo, just read it.

That actually is education through reinforcing consequences

One of the things I find most disturbing about the Cologne attacks is the apparent lack of fear of the consequences. Summed up by the report of one of the attackers purportedly ripping up his papers.
Most people keep to the law because there is a fear of consequences...
Think about drink driving - some people just morally wouldn't drink drive because they might hurt/kill someone.
But that definitely isn't the case for everyone otherwise we wouldn't need laws and punishments. So we add consequences - punishments - losing their licence and maybe their work, not being able to get work so losing their house etc. And shame - fear of the reaction of their community/family when it becomes know - what would your mother think?

But you only suffer the consequences of your actions if you get caught.

Assuming that lots if migrants have or can get fake ID (ime quite believable), they have nothing to lose really. No house, no family, no career prospects, no history where they are.
They can just move - to another city/country, get a new name and they have lost very little.
And there are so many arriving in such a short space of time it will be impossible to keep track of them all. Just like the missing refugee children in Italy really - how could thousands have just 'disappeared' ....but they have...
How can you catch them so they have to face some consequences?
Lets face facts - we can't even keep track of people just in the UK - people go missing all the time, criminals go on the run - and these are people with a history here - family/acquaintances/possessions they might try and keep in touch with etc yet still we have eg the 'wanted faces' on Crimewatch.

There is a EU wide fingerprint database and asylum seekers are supposed to be fingerprinted on arrival but they don't want to be www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-lampedusa-fingerprint-idUSKBN0U02H720151217 and many of them pass through Italy and Greece without being processed/fingerprinted www.spectator.co.uk/2015/06/the-invasion-of-italy/
And some have even destroyed their finger prints. There is no real trace of them.
And even if someone is fingerprinted then disappears - how does anyone know that bloke living down the road using fake ID is an illegal immigrant and wanted for rape in Germany? - unless he comes to the attention of the police again and they take his fingerprints
And if they do get found and prosecuted - conditions in an EU prison may well be better than those they have left (not needing to work hard to be kept warm, fed and sheltered)
And after their prison term depending on their country of origin you can't deport or their country of origin might refuse to take them ....

Unlucky

That's a very worrying article.

...marching along the island's cactus-lined roads and chanting in front of city hall.

"We are human beings! No fingerprints! We want freedom! We want to move from the camps! Italia respect our rights!" they shouted in English. Some also carried signs in both English and Italian. One read: "We are refugees. No fingerprints"

Humanitarian organization Arci in Sicily said some of the protesters had been on the island for more than a month, held there because they had refused to give their fingerprints as EU law requires. Some have also begun hunger strikes

I can't imagine what 'rights' gives any 'human beings' the idea that it's ok to disregard the law so blatantly.

I worry these poor deluded people are being lied to and wound up by anarchic 'no borders' groups for political means.

It's such a spectacular own goal. Public sympathy for refugees is waning, for economic migrants even more so. Friends report that supplies are dwindling and donations down significantly because of entitled and lawless behaviour like this.

EU nationals who previously wanted to welcome refugees (in Germany and Norway) have told me that they no longer want to see refugees and economic migrants (and worryingly are beginning to make no distinction between the two) coming unchecked across their borders.

And we are seeing previously anti-right voters now expressing support for far right groups as they feel the neo-liberals are completely uninterested in any conversation about the difficulties of assimilating mysoginists cultures and are too afraid or brainwashed to have anything other than a predictable and rather stupid 'racist' reaction.

It isn't going to end well.