Cologne Sexual Assaults IX and David Davies Web Chat

[LumelaMme]

On New Year's Eve women in Cologne were amongst those who were sexually assaulted and robbed in mass attacks.
This is a link to the last thread which has links to all the others.

Some of us have begun a petition asking the government to uphold women's rights and freedoms:

THE PETITION _ Please sign and share
The petition

We also hope that tomorrow, Monday 8th February, David TC Davies MP will be on MN for a web chat between 1pm and 2pm - it should be a sticky on either Chat or In The News. David was one of the few MPs who has shown any interest in this whole issue and who has responded sympathetically to those of us concerned about women's rights in a changing world.

This brave woman recently described her horrific ordeal in 2009 (happened in the UK)
(warning, the article contains some really upsetting details)
link

Gourmet it is Horror story. It was 4 pm when she was gang abducted. It makes you feel never go out on your own. Some countries would have life sentence. I think sentences should get harsher and someone needs to petition.
This is interesting though dailycaller.com/2016/02/04/refugees-go-clubbing-in-russia-harass-girls-wake-up-in-hospital-the-next-morning/

But Mariscall this is what these guys think women ought to do. Never go out without the company of a male relative or without full head to toe covering. They want their social norms to apply not ours. This is why we have to make it absolutely clear to them that no, this won't happen, they either accept this or they find somewhere to live where their norms are applicable.

It could have been any of us. The amount of times I pop across the road to Tesco, there is a KFC next door, I go there at 4/6pm lots of times. You don't know who is about.

As for the Russians I am not surprised at their reaction.They wont put up with any nonsense and it seems these guys had already been asked to leave Norway for unacceptable behaviour. While I don't condone violence there needs to be a far more robust reaction to bad behaviour by migrants. The issue being young single male migrants it seems. You don't hear of many women and children causing issues do you?

Qualifier, this is not ALL migrants doing this but certainly the ones in these posts. I am not suggesting EVERY man from ME/NA thinks or does this.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-36023444

Truly sad story about the rise in child bombers being used by Boko Haram. How they can do this to innocent children is beyond me. Many of them are young girls and drugged before it happens.

On British shores - Kent ironically enough:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3536873/Teenage-girl-raped-six-jeering-men-dosshouse-migrants-lured-friend-group.html

Yes I saw this as well. Considering it happened sometime ago and it's only now coming out makes me wonder how many of these incidents have happened. There also could be many low level incidents of harassment that are going on but not necessarily reported. Obviously we all face some low level leering, car horn beeping and whistling from men of all nationalities, but it's difficult to determine whether the gang thing is increasing and whether it is connected more frequently with men of certain origins. I know that there have been incidents of gang rapes within London/Manchester gang culture which have tended to be more on a punishment/revenge basis. But obviously the motivations are different and this seemed more linked to opportunism. I think educating young women to recognise the red flags in a situation are important as well but clearly these men may have taken advantage of a very young and vulnerable girl and committed a crime as a result. Educating new arrivals on the consequences of bad/criminal behaviour should be part of the first things that happen. I suggested at one point a new arrivals pack to the council with all need to know info even to the point if using the bins, not driving unlicenced/uninsured and other stuff.

Yes, gang-rape is definitely not a new crime, I remember in south-east london in the late-80's it was a "punishment" amongst certain newly-imported citizens. I too wonder how many more instances there are like this - they will come out sooner or later - too late for some women though.

Your point about cars is very interesting, there was a thread earlier this week about people who didn't know basic rules of the road. We dish out drivers' licenses willy-nilly (straight exchange for many EU + international countries) without asking people to observe the highway code.

In terms of insurance/tax/MOT - when we lived in Europe, one of my husband's MENA colleagues wanted to sell us a car. It was a highly-regulated country and he had been blissfully unaware (or at least claiming to be) of tax/insurance/MOT - we knew that if we were to buy that car we were going to bring a whole shitstorm of paperwork/fines upon ourselves. He'd not even registered it in his name with the local equivalent of the DVLA.

The Law on sexual offences needs reviewing the sentences. This review and new measures is what the Petition asks.

The petition isn't catching much interest. I wonder if a petition asking for tougher sentences for sex crimes would fair better? I also think we need to clearly categorise sex offences, gang rape for example does not have a separate crime category and therefore no statistics are available but we know this type of crime is rife.
I also feel we need a very public campaign like the zero tolerance campaign and I would like to see the issue of sexual assault in all it's forms discussed in sex education in schools, believe it or not there are a huge number of young girls who are unaware of what constitutes sexual assault.

I had the misfortune of witnessing the low level stuff mentioned upthread recently. I went to one of those places I hate (friends birthday, her choice!), city centre cocktail bar type place with a dance floor. I stayed sober as I tend to these days and watched as various groups of men (all foreign) encircled the dance floor sleezing over all the young women dancing. Some were clearly there to rob these women who leave their bags on the floor, I watched as they edged closer and closer. Twice I called security over as I could see what was happening. God knows how these nights end for some women.

ItsJust I am not a lawyer. The laws deal with the sex offenders. The legal profession such as baristers have recently pointed out in articles the need for reviewing the provisdions of 2003 Act on several grounds. The Petition says 'We demand that Government brings forward proposals for extra measures' so this may means anything to deal with the sex offences.

sorry for the typos, I am dyslexic

hmm the leaflets being by where they leave the shoes in the mosque really does, imo, show how unwatched and unaccountable these communities can feel. the fact that a 'mosque' equals ooh we're not allowed in there/an unspoken do not pass this point type boundary means they literally feel able to have extremist literature right by the front door? and if they do what does that tell you about their mainstream congregation and their attitudes? they might not all agree with the literature but clearly no one was worried they'd complain or report it.

here where i live in a MENA country, due to extremism the govt and religious authorities have started centrally dictating what the friday lecture should be about in an area. they are not free IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY to preach whatever they want and this is accepted here. if you ssaid we should do this in uk we'd have uproar yet it's normal in a muslim country? very bizarre to say the least. more is tolerated in the uk in terms of radical mosques and leaders known to preach hateful rhetoric than here in a muslim country. it is bizarre isn't it? reassure me that i've not gone insane please.

No Honeybadger, you're not insane but ironically it is in a way the more stringent hold on free speech in a Muslim country that may let them have a closer hold over the content of the sermon. We have a very liberal approach and we don't usually have to dictate what goes in religious sermons as the CofE doesn't usually preach insurrection on a weekly basis.

It may be a good idea to increase the penalty for gang sexual assault and rape if this is a growing problem - whatever the ethnicity of the perpetrators. I think girls AND boys need to be educated as to what constitutes sexual harassment, assault and rape as both can be victims and each need to be clued up about reading warning signs in behaviour and situations, perhaps this could be in PHSE lessons at school. As the mother of a son I feel I have a responsibility to see that he grows into a responsible decent man.

Completely agree sporting, I have a son too, on one of the old threads I posted about this and I just remember reading stats that shocked me regarding the lack of understanding around the issue, in particular teenage girls. But of course it's equally important to teach boys which is why I think it should be included in sex ed, or whatever it's called these days!
Discussions around healthy relationships and behaviour also need to be compulsory and everyone should be familiar with the meaning of gaslighting imo.
HoneyBadger, no you've not gone insane. The UK is ALL about the tolerance. Tis why it'so popular. The behaviour of the Cologne perpetrators would no doubt not be tolerated where you live either I'm guessing, or at least the penalties would be more of a deterrent.

i'm moving back to the uk in a couple of days btw so i am effected by situations in europe.

it is relevant that countries where many of these young men come from have far higher stakes in terms of risking committing crime. a very obvious answer is that if a young man tried to pass through a checkpoint here without valid I.D. he may disappear never to be seen again. they simply would not risk going anywhere, including a party for the night, without their I.D. card.

anyone from this region of the world knows exactly what destroying your I.D. means and what life threatening consequences it could have in their own country.

example not answer - sorry.

my point is not that we should be the same but that don't think anyone coming is casually destroying I.D. or seeing it as a light thing to do. they would never risk doing it here.

Evenin some places in Europe Honeybadger, there are still penalties for not carrying ID. My DH for example when we return for a visit to his home country is obliged to carry his ID card at all times. I'm not sure of the penalty but I do know all his family generally make sure they have it on them. The same applies to driving licence and insurance papers if you get in the car, they need to be with you too.

It's like these young men have been let off the leash and they are determined to party, but they have absolutely no boundaries.

I'm not sure what the rules are in Germany but I think many countries in Europe do still have ID cards, ne?

Should we have them in UK ? Not sure, but I wouldn't rule out it happening as things change and it has been on the table before.

Where I live the government also determine what the preaching should be about in the mosques at Friday prayers. According to DH, the Friday before the Brussels airport bombing, the topic was tolerance and how good Muslims should be tolerant towards people of other faiths.
Some countries also supervise the mosques which their overseas citizens attend, eg "Turkey sends its own imams to cater to the Turkish community’s religious requirements in Belgium, and most mosques frequented by Belgian Turks are run by the Diyanet, the Turkish directorate for religious affairs, which keeps a tight rein over the religious sphere in the Turkish state. By contrast, the mosques serving the Moroccan community are staffed by Gulf-trained imams who, critics say, have preached a Salafi form of Islam far more radical than the Maliki school of Islam practiced in North and West Africa."
foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/07/the-rif-connection-belgium-brussels-morocco-abdeslam/

Interesting post and link LongWayRound, thanks.

Germany are apparently to have a new integration law. There will be a requirement to learn the language, help to access employment with penalties for anyone refusing to and formal penalties for anyone moving from where they are resettled to prevent the formation of migrant ghettos and additional security measures. I wonder how this will pan out in practice and how it will be policed.

was just about to post it!

I will be interested to see how much enthusiasm is shown for the 'duties' Merkel outlines.

Yes I would be interested to see what variety of duties it comprises. In the end integration has to give someone the possibility of moving on to better things, to improve their lot. If it's just very basic manual jobs with little prospect of training it's not really going to work, people need to feel invested in their community to integrate. Learning the language will be a step in the right direction though as it improves opportunities straight away. DH came across a guy at his work who has been here 10years and still has almost no English. Not sure how he manages overall unless he relies on translations from others.

Germany is about 50 years late for some of their migrants. I had a young colleague when I worked in Germany in the 90s who I assumed was Turkish-born because his German was broken and heavily accented. I was shocked to find that he was born and had grown up right there in the city. Obviously this wasn't the case for most of the Turkish-Germans I knew, but it did happen. It happens when mainstream culture turns a blind eye to ghettoes forming and it does guys like him no favours at all.

I think we will end up with ID cards. I am not happy about this, but what is the alternative, long term?

"The price of increased diversity has been diminished liberty."