Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part IX

[vladimirsoftless]

Petition

Women in the UK must be free to work, travel and live free of sexual violence

Recently, women across the EU were subjected to mass sexual assaults of a type previously unknown in Europe. We demand that Government brings forward proposals for extra measures to uphold UK women's rights, safety & freedom, and to expand police understanding-recognition-response to such behaviour.

Please take a look and and sign:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/119385

Previous threads

Thread1

Thread 2

Thread 3

Thread 4

Thread 5

Thread 6

Thread 7

Thread 8

Good grief Emily. Of course No Borders are a cohesive group.

Vertigo it is obvious to any normal reader that your post has been cynically misrepresented.

Ah, x-post!
Lumela, if respindents to the Pew report sometimes live in countries where reprisals for not expressing certain beliefs are strong, can the responses then be trusted?
Oh, come on! Plenty of people managed to disagree. The interviews were face-to-face.

And if 'the reprisals for not expressing certain beliefs are strong', what does that tell you about the culture? That it's peace-loving?

I've said through all these threads that the best thing for the majority of the refugees is for them to stay as near to home to possible to make it easier for them to return. No one is suggesting that these refugees be abandoned. And don't forget that many of the people who have come into Europe recently are migrants from north Africa, not Syrian refugees. As has been pointed out. Repeatedly.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/12195042/Activists-helped-thousands-of-migrants-illegally-cross-the-Greece-Macedonia-border.html

Activists, among them reportedly British volunteers, handed out leaflets, seen by The Telegraph, which gave detailed directions in Arabic as to how to reach the river, a few miles from the muddy, chaotic encampment near the border village of Idomeni, where around 14,000 refugees are sleeping in sodden tents.

The leaflet, complete with a detailed map, advised the refugees that the river was “dry” and easy to ford.

In fact it had been dangerously swollen by days of rain, with the water reaching up to refugees’ waists as they waded across, with terrified children crying and older people struggling to keep their footing.

There will be no buses or trains to take you to Germany. If you make your way illegally via Eastern Europe you will have a chance to stay. Germany still takes refugees.”

The flyer warned refugees that the makeshift camp at Idomeni would soon be closed and that they would be sent back to Turkey under a deal recently drawn up between the EU and Ankara.

Their best chance was to ford the river and cross into Macedonia, it said. “The border fence ends about five kilometres from here, you can enter Macedonia there.”
If the refugees crossed the river in their thousands, the Macedonian police and army would be powerless to stop them, the flyer said, calling on asylum seekers to meet on Monday at midday at the Idomeni camp.

The leaflet should be destroyed once the directions had been memorised. “The police and journalists shouldn’t know anything about it. Good luck,” it read.

Greek police are investigating who wrote and distributed the leaflet for the mass break-out.

Alexis Tsipras, the prime minister, denounced as “criminal” the people who orchestrated the attempt.

He said that “strangers, perhaps pretending to be volunteers", had encouraged the refugees to cross into Macedonia "at risk to their lives".

“This is criminal behaviour towards people who face great hardship. This must stop."

The refugees have a mind of their own and I am sceptical that the attempt to cross was simply someone putting them up to it. No doubt they were fed up of sitting in the mud. Trenchfoot has been affecting them and people have been having toes removed because of gangrene. It very obviously is desperation.

I think volounteers oppose the closing of the borders which has left people stranded. I oppose that too. That is something quite different to wanting all borders to be permanently eradicated and unchecked migration for everyone.

'No Borders' in the defintion I give in above para does not exist in Calais or Idomeni in large numbers. The notion that it does is definitelycooked up by the rigt wing press, as you say. It enables the demonisation of kindly volounteers into aggressive 'activists.'

The position of volounteers is very different to ours. We watch and judge their actions from our sofas. They act from very different circumstances and they are there to try to help the people there, not to endanger them.

How, how HOW, can anyone with a Heart READ THIS ^^ AND DENY THE ACTIVISTS WHO HAVE BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS.

How?

" “It looked very organised – there was a rope and the activists were in high-visibility jackets,” said a news photographer who crossed the river with the refugees. “The activists looked like they were from northern Europe and there were Brits among them.”

The crossing was condemned by humanitarian organisations as dangerous and offering a false hope for the refugees, some of whom have been camped in the mud for three weeks with young children and even new-born babies.

“It was misleading and risky,” Babar Baloch, a senior official with the UNHCR, told The Telegraph."

BUT EMILY BOHEMIA SAYS:

"The refugees have a mind of their own and I am sceptical that the attempt to cross was simply someone putting them up to it"

"They act from very different circumstances and they are there to try to help the people there, not to endanger them"

BUT

A senior offical with UNHCR says

“It was misleading and risky,” Babar Baloch, a senior official with the UNHCR, told The Telegraph."

"The crossing was condemned by humanitarian organisations as dangerous and offering a false hope for the refugees, some of whom have been camped in the mud for three weeks with young children and even new-born babies"

I'm very old fashioned. I help people by not killing them and not allowing children to be raped, that's just me and my silly "right wing" views.

Blood on their hands. A shocking turn of events. :(

emilybohemia

"I think volounteers oppose the closing of the borders which has left people stranded. I oppose that too. That is something quite different to wanting all borders to be permanently eradicated and unchecked migration for everyone."

Actually, there is no practical difference between those positions, as much as you may pretend there is.

The use of the word "sceptical" suggests that the notion is not entirely dismissed out of hand - that in fact there is more than just a small element of truth in it.

Wordplay my friends - it ain't just a triple score game.

emilybohemia

"'No Borders' in the defintion I give in above para does not exist in Calais or Idomeni in large numbers. The notion that it does is definitelycooked up by the rigt wing press, as you say. It enables the demonisation of kindly volounteers into aggressive 'activists.'"

Any moronic "volunteers" who participated in sending those migrants across the river need to go to prison for a LONG, LONG TIME.

'No Borders' in the defintion I give in above para does not exist in Calais or Idomeni in large numbers. The notion that it does is definitelycooked up by the rigt wing press, as you say.
Blimey, where did you learn to twist words like that? I ask a rhetorical question (expecting the answer 'No'), which doesn't mention Idomeni, and you turn it into a statement which includes Idomeni.

Dazzling.

Also you said earlier that you didn't think No Borders existed as a 'cohesive group'. Now you're saying that people who believe in the abolition of borders - i.e. No Borders the organisation - isn't in Calais or Idomeni 'in large numbers'. So now you're implying that it DOES exist (after I linked a bit ineptly to the website...)

It's like wrestling with a bloody jellyfish, it really is.

Inigo, these people are what? Why post the pictures? You have no idea who those people are or what their views are.

'And if 'the reprisals for not expressing certain beliefs are strong', what does that tell you about the culture? That it's peace-loving?'

Is an authoritarian regime representative of 'a culture'? I think not.

'The interviews were face to face.' And? So were interviews with Bosnian prisoners of war. It didn't mean they weren't shitting themselves about the consequences of telling the truth.

'I've said through all these threads that the best thing for the majority of the refugees is for them to stay as near to home to possible to make it easier for them to return. No one is suggesting that these refugees be abandoned. And don't forget that many of the people who have come into Europe recently are migrants from north Africa, not Syrian refugees. As has been pointed out. Repeatedly.

Yes, you have and it makes no sense. Staying in refugee camps where they have no chance to work or no education for their kids and often no food and neglect of human rights is a poor answer.In addition, the sheer amount of refugees means this system is not viable anyway. Countries close by have taken refugees already, far more than many European ones.

Does pointing out where they are from matter? What matters is the level of suffering and the responsibility of European countries to respond by providing refugee and safety as they are legally obligated to.

Onewing

These activists are not moronic though.

The river is swollen and flooded and they printed leaflets to encourage these desperate people to cross it, because it was worth the risk.

Its a great photo opportunity, get the worlds media watching people in wheel chairs, small babies being lifted through the water.

That's not moronic, its sinister and wicked.

People died in that river including a pregnant woman.

A leaflet with great detail was issued to these migrants, people were there in high viz jackets to help them to the their deaths and crushed hopes.

It was highly organised.

We watch and judge their actions from our sofas

Speak for yourself. You may watch and judge from your sofa. Please don't make sweeping generalisations about anything that other people, who are also humanitarians, but without helping people drown, actually do for real refugees.

Just because posters do not frantically virtue signal their heartbreak at situations, it is silly to make generalisations about what they might do in the time they are not posting on MN.

emily where is your condemnation of these actions which have led to children's lives being put at risk and the death of 3 people, including a pregnant woman? I find it surprising that you are justifying it considering your outrage at the pregnant woman being "beaten" by police in Calais.

emilybohemia

"Staying in refugee camps where they have no chance to work or no education for their kids and often no food and neglect of human rights is a poor answer.In addition, the sheer amount of refugees means this system is not viable anyway. Countries close by have taken refugees already, far more than many European ones.

Does pointing out where they are from matter? What matters is the level of suffering and the responsibility of European countries to respond by providing refugee and safety as they are legally obligated to."

What a shame that no one in Europe agrees with your open borders position!

It's like wrestling with a bloody jellyfish, it really is

Jelly fish look harmless but they sting. Just like these volunteers look like they are helping small children in an awful situation.

They are wolves in sheeps clothing because its they who have created the situation where small children are wading through a flooded river that is killing people.

A poster asked Look at the photos and see who is helping the people over the river with convenient ropes...

I posted photos in case anyone hadn't seen them. and answered the above question.

Cos I'm helpful me, on my Sofa of Help

emily How can you say there's no education in the refugee camps when you were closely aligned to a woman the other week who claimed to be teaching raped children how to count? What you are saying makes no sense.

I've just remembered, wasn't it your husband who was helping at Idomeni? He must be utterly distraught - wanting to help those refugees but trying to stop the anarchists make them cross the river. I'm so sorry for your family - you must be broken wishing there were something you could've done to stop those deaths.

where is your condemnation of these actions which have led to children's lives being put at risk and the death of 3 people, including a pregnant woman? I find it surprising that you are justifying it considering your outrage at the pregnant woman being "beaten" by police in Calais

Police in Calais wrestle knife out of pregnant womans hand - BAD.

Activists in Idomeni who lure a pregnant woman and her teenage sister to their deaths - OK

Far right groups who attack innocent migrants in Calais - BAD.

Knife wielding migrants who attack lorry driver in Calais - OK.

And so it goes.

"Greek police are investigating who wrote and distributed the leaflet for the mass break-out.

Alexis Tsipras, the prime minister, denounced as “criminal” the people who orchestrated the attempt.

He said that “strangers, perhaps pretending to be volunteers", had encouraged the refugees to cross into Macedonia "at risk to their lives".

“This is criminal behaviour towards people who face great hardship. This must stop.""

Anyone who distributed that leaflet had better like Greek prison food!

I find it surprising that you are justifying it considering your outrage at the pregnant woman being "beaten" by police in Calais.
Me too, WeMust.

Okay, emily, what about all the people who gave alternative answers? I note you sidestep that issue. The option for alternative answers clearly existed. People were giving their opinions. You don't like the conclusions drawn by the report, so you're bickering about how genuine they are.

Staying in refugee camps where they have no chance to work or no education for their kids and often no food and neglect of human rights is a poor answer
Haven't I also said, more money to the camps, chance to work, etc etc etc?

Does pointing out where they are from matter?
Let me say this slowly for the hard go thinking: Of. Course. It. Does. Because if they are from Algeria, or southern Nigeria, or Morocco, or Pakistan, they are NOT refugees and are fouling it up for people from Syria and Iraq who are.

What matters is the level of suffering and the responsibility of European countries to respond by providing refugee and safety as they are legally obligated to.
Europe has no obligation to provide 'refuge' for people who are economic migrants. Europe has a moral obligation to assist in international development, but that's a whole different issue.

hard OF thinking.
Typing too fast.

Does pointing out where they are from matter?

Yup.

There's the pesky old refugee vs migrant dichotomy that seems to stump so many intellectually challenged otherwise lovely types.