Sex Attacks in Cologne and other European Cities Part VII

[januarybrown1998]

part 6

part 5

part 4

part 3

part 2

part 1

The events of NYE were shocking enough; the subsequent minimising and under-reporting were an affront to women's rights to equality across Europe.

It's a testament to the tenacity and commitment of this community that we are at thread VII; do join the discussion and feel free to share the links and letters to anyone you think may wish to be part of this important debate.

We are currently awaiting the approval of a petition to parliament.

Shortly we will post links for those who want to take a proactive part in safeguarding the rights of all UK women to live in freedom from the fear of mass sexual assault as we sadly saw in NYE and reports of which are finally seeing daylight across Europe.

I'm not sure, I think that phrase would cover both. Didn't the three rapes reported before include digital rape/ penetration?

Emily You say "Merkel refused to let people die. Due to the poor response of other EU leaders, there was no coordinated and coherent response, but she tried." but she really didn't save anyone apart from those who could make it over intact. She leaned on her gatepost, arms crossed, and watched people struggle across the water/land. The few vulnerable people whose lives have been saved are tiny in proportion compared to who really has made it over. There are many other ways in which vulnerable refugees fleeing atrocities can be helped. What Merkel did is horrendous. It is bad for everybody involved. I can't read any more about people dying en route. If she wanted to help refugees, then why didn't she genuinely help them by bringing them over safely? The 'poor' response from other EU leaders is not poor but different. I feel genuine despair. I honestly don't see many beneficiaries of her actions. I just don't get it.

Yodel that is truly horrendous. I have no words and have no idea of what the future will bring.

"All of the suspects are of North African origin".

But still some on here will deny that.

This link is very relevant to the subject of this thread. It seems that disillusionment has set in with some refugee aid workers. One says that most of the male refugees have no respect at all for women, we are totally unimportant to them. Some of them are aggressive in their demands for apartment and car; there have been threats as well.

www.express.co.uk/news/world/636372/Death-threats-harassment-German-workers-refugee-centre

There is a horrid article in The Mail about a Muslim pressure group saying Germany should ban alcohol to help North African men integrate and that women should dress modestly or they are "a naked antelope thrown before hungry lions" and have only themselves to blame for assaults. I'm absolutely appalled by it and don't understand why these groups are allowed to state these things publicly, is that not some form of hate speech?

On the other hand there has also apparently been a video posted on FB by a young German girl complaining of how life has changed for young women in Germany as they now get heckled, threatened and insulted by men for things like wearing t-shirts in summer. Apparently that is being taken down by FB (although they deny censorship) but it is still about as it keeps being reposted by others

I'm finding the sudden swing in popular opinion a bit disconcerting though. I want us to find a sensible way through this not lurch from left wing apologism to right wing intolerance if that makes sense. It seems at the moment we have a lot of both and very little middle of the road common sense

CalmYo "a Muslim pressure group saying Germany should ban alcohol to help North African men integrate and that women should dress modestly"

You see, the demands already begin - it's all about me-me-me. To demand that a host country changes its ways is exceptionally arrogant. It's always some thing or some one who is leading these poor men astray. All of them have massive cases of Entitlement.

CalmYoBadSelf

'I'm finding the sudden swing in popular opinion a bit disconcerting though. I want us to find a sensible way through this not lurch from left wing apologism to right wing intolerance if that makes sense. It seems at the moment we have a lot of both and very little middle of the road common sense'

I'm not the world's biggest fan of Nye Bevan, but in this situation his quote is spot on: 'We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down'.

"a Muslim pressure group saying Germany should ban alcohol to help North African men integrate and that women should dress modestly" In my less lucid moments, I do sometimes wonder if this is all a mass piss-take. It's like a mass group of UK men going there and stating in the press that the citizens should drink alcohol and the women should uncover themselves. It just doesn't make sense. The cultural mores are no longer a surprise to any citizen of the world given globalised communications, so why is this happening unless it's all part of a big plan?

CalmYo You've reminded me ...... a year ago I saw a YouTube vid of a young Dutch girl being attacked in the street, broad daylight, by a ME-NA guy in his twenties for wearing a t-shirt in warm weather. He really went for her, smacked her around the head and she fell to the ground. Plus the verbal abuse of course for showing her form.

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-feminists-debate-cologne-attacks-a-1072806.html
That is interesting.

Interesting article Mariscal, very similar to those on these threads

Entitlement, yes. Even at the beginning of the year I was quite disturbed by the anger and shouting among some groups of refugees. As though they thought that tens of thousands of people turning up on small Greek islands or at a city centre train station was something that Europeans should just be able to deal with instantaneously.

I find that spiegel interview disturbing. Its like sections of modern feminism have passed beyond having problems with intersectionality issues, which at least I can understand, into some kind of.. weird state.. where everything must fit a concept of the universality of patriarchy. Where differences in cultures are, in terms of feminist analysis, trivialised or simply irrelevant. Where in one culture a man may act while recognising he is both committing a crime and morally wrong, but acts anyway, compared to a different culture where a man may act in exactly the same way, but within a framework where it is not only legal but culturally expected its how a man SHOULD act.

I was reading the claims of the woman sueing the misogynistic extremist Christian Josh Duggar. These men hide behind religion.

Extremists of any ilk are inevitably awful.

I read a comment recently that was along the lines of "If a religion has problems with its fundamentalists it is because there is a problem with the fundamentals of that religion". Sadly all these extremists cherry pick parts of holy books and extrapolate for their own purposes

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-finance-minister-schaeuble-on-the-refugee-crisis-a-1073442.html#spLeserKommentare

It pains me to say this, but I think the EU will have to move towards offshore detention centers sooner or later. Like Oz already has.

At least this will mean thatgiven that, realistically speaking, there is a limit to how many outsiders we can takethe available slots can be filled up with widows, kids and families rather than strapping young single men. And those chosen from the camps can be brought over safely. And people will no longer be tempted to try and make it over on rickety boats.

I suspect that it will turn out to be, on balance, the kindest option.

Not going to pretend it makes me happy though.

I wonder how these men who escaped to Europe are viewed by those left behind in the camps and starving in Syria?

Those 126 women are going to be going through hell. Emotional and psychological trauma. As well as having to have STI tests Some of them may need terminations.

I am not a fan of ruthless dictators or racist language but from five years ago, pre-Syria:
www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/01/eu-muammar-gaddafi-immigration
Large numbers of young male migrants from misogynist cultures heading for Europe is not about to suddenly stop on its own, not even if we wave a magic wand over Syria.

www.dw.com/en/german-police-debate-identifying-suspects-by-ethnicity/a-18998812

"I'm finding the sudden swing in popular opinion a bit disconcerting though. I want us to find a sensible way through this not lurch from left wing apologism to right wing intolerance if that makes sense. It seems at the moment we have a lot of both and very little middle of the road common sense"

I know what you mean. And I HATE having to look through Breitbart and the Express and RT. These sites are also biased and sensationalist and have their own shitty agendas. I feel slightly dirty reading them. But what can you do when mainstream media outfits are refusing to cover these kinds of stories until they are shamed into it?

I will reluctantly have to include all these sites in my general news consumption, going forward, because I am wondering what other things the mainstream media is refusing to report on.

I liked the fourth comment in that Speigel article:
I am 63 years old with two adult children. I am American feminist, and an attorney in private practice for 30 years. While there are many differences among individuals, over the years I have noticed that when a difficult issue comes up, my female colleagues tend to express their views in terms of, "What is good for society?" and my male colleagues tend to express their views in terms of, "What is good for me and my family?" Men seem to feel more free to advocate candidly for their own best interests. I have gradually learned to adopt the male approach because if I do not advocate for myself, I will have no advocate. It is not my business to tell German women what to think or do. But if I were in Germany, I would ask, "If a million men come to Germany from a region with a culture abusive of women, will this be good for me and my daughter?" I would answer, "NO, this is not in our best interest." I would feel free to oppose immigration for this reason, I would feel free to demand limits on immigration for this reason, and I would not apologize for my self-concern, nor would I be intimidated by accusations of racism.

I would ask, "If a million men come to Germany from a region with a culture abusive of women, will this be good for me and my daughter?" I would answer, "NO, this is not in our best interest." I would feel free to oppose immigration for this reason, I would feel free to demand limits on immigration for this reason, and I would not apologize for my self-concern, nor would I be intimidated by accusations of racism.

Well put. My feelings exactly. I have three daughters.

I would not apologize for my self-concern, nor would I be intimidated by accusations of racism

I believe the debate has moved on, far and fast, from the emotive manipulation through heartbreaking images.

I imagine the innocent girls who have been victims of Europe-wide sex attacks and their families are heart-broken too.

And to reduce the argument to a moral pissing contest as to who's the biggest victim is both insulting and very 2015.

It's clear that there has been a terrible abuse by some migrants of their host country and of the young girls who have the right to live unmolested.

We cannot and must not allow the acknowledgement of that fact to be reduced to a playground chant of 'racist.'

There is a criminal, male element amongst the incoming, and, until recently, welcome refugees, that must be recognised and tackled.

There are some (and I include media and politicians here as well as some posters here on mumsnet) who spend such extraordinary energy in finding ever-more surreal ways in which to blame 'the West' for these men's refusal to respect the laws of the country in which they chose to make a new home.

I would respectfully suggest that energy, for the safety of genuine refugees and young girls who live in Europe, be expended more practically in educating the offenders that they are in real danger of contributing to a very ugly and dangerous backlash.