Brexit: what would happen to EU citizens living in UK?

[marghini]

I am a EU citizen and I have been living, working and paying taxes in the UK for a while.

I am really concerned about what would happen to the EU citizens who built a life for themselves and settled here in the UK in case of a Brexit.

Do you think all EU citizens already living in the UK would be pushed out? Or perhaps the government would just stop allowing further EU immigration?

Mistigri

That's a much more balanced and sensible summation of the situation than the article you posted dwelling very heavily on the uncertainty that may follow because France was not a full signatory to the Vienna Convention, so may not comply with international law.

I'm a French national living in the UK since 1995. Always worked and paid taxes. I have a son born in the UK (British citizenship) with my now ex husband (also British citizen). I am employed as a French teacher in a secondary school and no way making the 30k + required for visa applicants. What will happen to someone like me? Are they going to ask me to leave my son behind, sell all my belongings and s*d off back to France because I'm not earning enough? In a faculty of 7, 5 members of staff are non-British (all EU citizens). How are schools and other businesses supposed to survive such a loss of manpower? Surely on the ground of human rights, this poses fundamental issues? Can we be ask to leave when we have a lifetime of roots and history in this country? I very much doubt it can be legally done... For new migrants, it's obviously a different story!

Nellyanne it's extremely unlikely that you will be expected to leave, but unless you take a British citizenship then you probably face some additional paperwork in the event of a brexit. It would of course depend on any post-referendum negotiations, so nothing is certain, but personally I think it's highly likely that EU citizens who have acquired permanent residency rights under EU law (after 5 years) will be granted some protection.

I'm in the opposite situation having been in France since the mid 1990s and having 2 kids born and educated here. We are in the process of obtaining french nationality for our children (one done, one en cours) and once that's done then depending on the referendum result may seek french nationality for DH and I.

Would you consider seeking british nationality? I know it's a hassle as well as being expensive ...

Surely on the ground of human rights, this poses fundamental issues?

Nobody is going to ask you to leave.

Why would they?

If the UK leaves the EU it becomes a sovereign country and can invite people from all over the world to live here and bring their skills to this country - that would include you.

Even if we do leave the EU we are still signatories of the European Convention on Human Rights and you still have protection under international law that prohibits a country from expelling any section of its population.

Under Human Rights law have a right to a family life - and you have British family.

You also have a right to the 'peaceful enjoyment' of your possessions.

Cameron could tell you that now - but he won't because it suits his purpose to ramp up Project Fear.

I'm possibly one of the few who haven't lived here for more than 5 years, but definitely one of the many worried. I work, pay my taxes and have always been a law abiding citizen. I'm an EU national however. Been here for 3 years. Should the UK vote to leave the EU, what will/can I expect for people in my situation?

Deeply worried.

Joanna There's a discussion of the legal situation here:

eulawanalysis.blogspot.fr/2014/07/what-would-happen-to-eu-nationals.html

If you've been in the UK three full years, you'll have acquired permanent residency rights by July 2018 which is the earliest possible date that a brexit could occur. It's not 100% certain that permanent residence rights acquired under EU law would be respected, but it's a reasonable assumption that they will be!

Thanks Mistigri.

I always assumed that there would be new rules after the 24th if UK voted to leave the EU. So does that mean for the next two years (till July 2018), everything remains the same? Still part of the EU?

And I'm curious, my husband would have been in the UK for 4 years by then (and won't qualify for the permanent residency). He also isn't a UK citizen but is building his life around here. I wonder what happens to him.

Hi Joanna, I am marghini, the OP but I permanently namechanged.

I wonder the same. I moved to the UK around a year ago so I won't qualify for permanent residency by July 2018.

My DP (I often call him DH but we are actually not married yet, planning to do it in 3/4 years) is British so I guess that worst case scenario we could get married earlier than expected and I could get a spouse visa or something like that?

Can anyone confirm whether this could be a viable option in case of Brexit?

Joanna After the referendum, if the decision is in favour of leaving, then the British government will give formal notice of its intention to exit the EU. From that date, there is a minimum 2 year negotiation period during which the UK remains part of the EU. So realistically the earliest date possible for brexit is July 2018, and it could be later than this, if there is a delay in giving notice, or if the negotiation period is extended.

Lily/marghini the article I linked to above is the clearest explanation I've found of the legal issues, but obviously it's impossible to say which of those three scenarios will apply, nor what changes might be made to national immigration law to accommodate EU nationals. A post brexit government would face significant practical constraints - it would be costly and time-consuming to register and process paperwork for 3 million EU immigrants. It couldn't be done overnight.

The legal situation is so complex, and the practical ramifications so huge, that I'm inclined to believe that it would take many years for the situation to be completely resolved.

As a long-term expat in the UK of 20 years and working in a line of work where I interact with hundreds of people on a daily basis, my gut feeling bordering on certainty is that the vote will be Out by a large margin. Of course I am shocked not by the decision, but the lack of any form of substantiated discussion over what the future will look like and even more any clear and logical exit strategy. Though one would expect common sense to prevail, as no model (eg Norway, Swit. etc.) would satisfy the local population, we can not rule out a complete break out and renegotiation in which both sides can take the most hardline approach, the UK in part to celebrate its clam to sovereignty and the EU to make an example; obviously that is a lose-lose scenario which I sincerely hope to avoid. In any event, the EU citizens in the UK will be amongst the ones hardest hit. I read a very comprehensive legal analysis by a well-respected QC why the Vienna Convention would probably not apply. Of course having 2-3 million EU citizens applying for visas would be a logistical conundrum of unprecedented scale and profit for Home Office's coffers. What is something that a lot of friends who have been year for some time have repeated and I find myself mirroring their sentiments is they would probably consider leaving if they can rather than get involved in that situation - I don't expect my fellow Briton friends to understand but that is how we feel. A lot of people are established and have their families etc. here, so they might decide to join the fray. But what we have also seen, and is the saddest thing is than the perception and outlook towards Europeans has changed, so that now we are seen by a large minority if not as burden, at least as 'expendable'. I have carefully stayed out of the referendum as the is a domestic issue and for the British public to decide (I have an opinion and will be affected of the outcome but as anyone would say this is not your country, a position which I respect and accept), but invariably of the decision being out or in, I can say, that at least in my eyes the European elements in the country has been scarred for years to come.

strangemisfit I think you are right that a lot of more mobile, younger, wealthier expats would consider leaving - not just because of the likely hassle of registration or visas, but because they feel unwelcome, or do not wish to tie themselves to a small, politically and economically unconnected country. I think this would be a great loss, personally.

A lot will need or wish to stay, though, depending on the strength of the ties they have formed with the UK, or for financial or practical reasons - eg local partners, children's education, being unable to afford to substantial expense of relocating. (I am a British immigrant in the EU and I couldn't leave my host country even if I wanted to, at least until my children are 18, as they are both at critical stages in their education.)

Can I ask if you are able to post a link to the QC opinion on the Vienna Convention? There is a lot of misinformation about this being propagated by media.

Don't worry they can't just knock you out :) for them to do that, they will have to return you all the taxes you've been paying from when you started working officially and these are billions of pounds, this will never happen, so they will create new rules and laws in regards for EU citizens lived here for at least 3 years will receive residence automatically. I've been living here for 8 years and running limited company for 3 years, I pay a lot corporation taxes and other taxes, so.....

First of all, apologies for the typos in my earlier posts - typing from a mobile phone isn't my cup of tea..

Mistigri, please see the link below.
101r4q2bpyqyt92eg41tusmj.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Could-EU-citizens-living-in-the-UK-claim-acquired-rights-if-there-is-a-full-Brexit.pdf

SoulOfUniverse, no monies would be returned. Any taxes paid would have been for services rendered, changes in the immigration status have no retroactive impact on taxation.

My mum is an EU citizen who has been living in Britain for most of her life now, well over 30 years, but she never got British citizenship (at first she wasn't allowed and since then I guess it became a matter of principle to her). I'm a tad concerned how this might affect her.

I'm a Brit expat living in the EU as well, though no worries for me as I have citizenship of the country I'm living in but I feel sorry for those that don't.

Hey check out this video on Brexit!

You may find some of the answers you are looking for

misfit thanks for that, very interesting. Useful for debunking the vienna convention nonsense that you see spouted all over the place.

not imposed by an unaccountable Brussels elite

This is not true. There is a legislative process which includes the European Parliament, to which there are democratic elections (on a PR basis, so more representative than the UK system). The UK does not always get what it wants, but it does get a say, and has a veto over the more important issues (eg who joins the EU next).

Hopefully the UK will say that any EU citizens currently here can stay, at least any who arrived by the date of the referendum. After all, they won't want a load of elderly UK expats coming back here and clogging up the NHS. At the moment, if you meet an EU citizen in an NHS facility, they are quite likely to be treating you, not a fellow patient.

Hopefully there will be sensible arrangements made to ensure that UK citizens who want to holiday, study or work in EU countries are still able to without undue bureaucracy and vice versa.

The most infuriating thing about all this harping on about supposed lack of accountability and democracy is that there are many british citizens who are directly affected by this referendum yet are disenfranchised. Cameron could have given us a vote but knew he would be lynched by his Eurosceptic MPs if he did.

So much for the democratic process!

Patsy - repost in "media requests" - site rules are that you are not allowed to make this sort of request embedded in other threads/on other bits of the site.

It is NOT easy to pass the Life in the UK test to become a British citizen.
Why do people assume the immigrants are taking over easily? Many of us went to school here but still haven't passed this very important test! How is it fair to be left out when you've paid so much tax over so many years and still not be considered a Citizen. The doors should never have been opened then. Even if you www born here.
If you apply for citizenship by mistake you will loose £1200, yes they get to keep that! And try speaking to anybody there about your case, you can't! So the only way you can find out if you are Entitled to becoming a citizen is if you send them £1200 through the post.

Why should people vote for OUT or IN if they're not given the full facts. They want us to vote but they're not stating if there will be free movement?
Will there be free movement ? No answer? Then no vote.

And who said EU rules? The U.K. want you to apply for a Residency certificate, so just because EU say you can work here it doesn't mean a thing. So you're welcome to work in the UK and pay tax, but there's no guarantee you be alright in the end. It must frighten people, to pay tax in a country and still have no rights because they can change them.

There was a thread a while back by somebody saying that they were born here (UK) and lived here all their life but were able to get a Republic of Ireland passport due to their grandmother being born there.
They said that if we left the EU they would use their right for themselves and children to obtain the Irish passport and therefor have dual nationality so that their children would continue to have more freedom with I suppose travel, employment etc in EU countries.

This is something that I think there will be a big surge in. I have always read that many American/Australian etc nationals try and get EU passports due to Grandparents being born in Europe, thus making life a lot easier for them coming to the EU. Now I think it will be British passport holders doing the same if we vote to leave.