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Quick Poll: EU stay or leave?

811 replies

BlueSmarties76 · 10/01/2016 11:38

Would you vote to stay or leave the EU?

Quick poll.

OP posts:
queensansastark · 13/01/2016 13:58

Leave. Like now.

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 14:03

Cameron's plan of 20,000 over 5 years is frankly laughable

Yes, it would be laughable it was the whole plan. But given that a billion, a billion pounds is also part of the plan, I don't think it can be ridiculed. What if Germany had also given a billion? And France? And others in proportion? Surely better than this mass migration. Also more hope for rebuilding Syria in the future.

OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 14:12

I actually think Cameron's response to the migration crisis was the correct one. Support the establishment and proper funding of camps near affected areas, so that people can stay near their homelands and return/rebuild once the conflict is over.

Otherwise you end up with a situation where anyone who can afford to leave permanently, will - in other words, your entire professional class decamps to other countries. And once they're settled in other countries, they won't come back.

One of the longest-lasting consequences of conflict is that the civic infrastructure degrades. That is to say, doctors, nurses, civil servants, administrators - people who get things organised and done - leave and don't come back. So you end up with a massive skills gap when you try and rebuild a government and civil society. Then it's easy for tyranny to slip in via the back door, simply because people don't know how to organise a functioning society that people want to pitch in with, so they have to use force.

Supporting refugee camps nearby is a much more clear-sighted, pragmatic and ultimately helpful thing to do than any amount of sentimental open-border posturing. Merkel's decision to open the German borders actually increased the risk of more children dying at sea, because it sent a message that if you risked the journey and survived, you'd be allowed to stay in Germany. So more kids were risked, and no doubt more have drowned. That's squarely on Merkel's shoulders.

Not that this has anything to do with the EU as such, and it doesn't really have much to do with my desire to leave. That's about democracy, and ultimately about how we want to meet globalisation. Do we want to face globalisation as one single region in a technocratic superstate that has repeatedly demonstrated its contempt for the wishes of ordinary people? Or do we want to face globalisation as part of a sovereign nation that, for all the flaws in its political system, elects its leaders and can kick them out if they don't deliver on their promises?

ExitPursuedByABear · 13/01/2016 14:17

Absolutely. And that is why I want to leave. The whole unelected gravy train of Eurocrats really angers me.

I was all for a common market, but noone voted for the German superstate that is effectively taking over.

Wannabestepfordwife · 13/01/2016 15:17

Leave- always have been and always will be. I find the EU undemocratic and I'm against centralisation/globalisation

OTheHugeManatee · 13/01/2016 16:23

Globalisation is here whether we like it or not. The only choice we have is about whether or not we expect our leaders to have any kind of democratic accountability.

Sovereign nations (not 'pooling sovereignty' in a technocratic superstate) is the only way of retaining accountability. Without democratic accountability, globalisation sees the little people shafted, again and again and again.

That's why I want us out of the EU. I want the little people of the UK to have a fighting chance of seeing the UK step into the 21st century's globalised economy while retaining some measure of democratic oversight over the politicians that represent our nation within the global order. You might say our politicians are a shower of shit, but given the choice between them and an unelected suit who answers to corporate lobbyists and other suits, I'll take the ones I can vote out when they inevitably disappoint me.

Drinkstoomuchcoffee · 13/01/2016 17:58

2016: What if Germany had also given a billion?

It has.
www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/Aussenpolitik/HumanitaereHilfe/Wo/Syrien.html

2016IsANewYearforMe · 13/01/2016 19:50

Good link Drinks I've looked for other links where I can compare like for like time periods of donations. This one is recent and comprehensive. What stands out for me is how much the Netherlands are giving. They are a rather small country compared to their donation I think. It would appear that Germany is giving a good amount, though less than the UK when they are more populous and richer.

www.devex.com/news/who-s-giving-to-the-syrian-people-86938

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3222250/How-Britain-given-aid-refugees-Germany-Netherlands-France-Italy-Hungary-Austria-Poland-COMBINED.html

oldzebra · 13/01/2016 21:59

Merkel invited them. 'Any one making it to Germany will be accepted' was the jist of the invitation/crisis Merkel created. The Syrian situation was not helped by Merkel at all.

OublietteBravo · 13/01/2016 22:00

Stay.

oldzebra · 13/01/2016 22:08

I agree the decent people are needed to rebuild their own country at some stage, not to disappear into a German city. The displaced people would long for their own culture and environment and peace in their own country. I don't believe it helps anyone in the long term to have mass movement of people. I don't understand why it isn't said that the refugees are accepted on a temporary basis, until their country is returned at some stage to a functioning country again.

oldzebra · 13/01/2016 22:28

It isn't just about immigration - no I don't expect it to stop. The Schemgen issue you describe does not affect that anyone with an EU passport can come here to live.

Our government can say no to receiving the refugees, as they have, however Germany's decision makes our decision ultimately redundant as these refugees we didn't accept will be given passports and come here, if they wish, anyway. Not difficult to understand.

Forget immigration issue, as my point is we are affected by other country's decisions. That's what people should decide if they wish to continue to be part of.

Main issue for anyone is a stay vote will give green light for future generations to be gobbled up by Europe 'people voted for it'.

People won't be voting for status quo or an improved deal: they will have given seal of approval for future governments to say Britain wants to be in heart of EU and not an outside sceptic.

Thatrabbittrickedme · 14/01/2016 00:15

Undecided. Economically I think stay is safest, but for the sake of democracy and my personal values I think leave (Cologne has influenced me somewhat as well). I don't know yet which will prevail by voting day....

LovelyFriend · 14/01/2016 00:33

Stay

Toadinthehole · 14/01/2016 05:33

Strong leave

Anything else will result in further European integration and it will be impossible for the UK to leave. It's now or never. It is debatable whether business will suffer, and in any event one should take the long view on these things.

ultimus · 14/01/2016 06:07

Leave ASAP

lljkk · 14/01/2016 09:41

Historically Germany has been one of the toughest countries in EU to become naturalised in. The new citizens may have to renounce other citizenship.

Have to be well integrated into German society, good German language skills, not on benefits, and in Germany for at least six yrs. It's a lot to work for & need to show investment in staying in Germany. They aren't going to flood over our way soon.

Inkanta · 14/01/2016 11:53

Leave.

The terms of the EU membership and undemocratic.

hanahsaunt · 14/01/2016 12:08

Stay, stay, stay, stay, stay!

BlueSmarties76 · 14/01/2016 21:48

I'll do another count tomorrow eve. Interesting arguments. I'm feeling more enthusiastic about voting stay.

OP posts:
Palebluedotty · 15/01/2016 02:34

Leave.

For three major reasons.

  1. The economy will be fine. I think because the UK is a physically small landmass, many people forget it is the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world! We will be fine financially if we leave. Nobody is going to institute disadvantageous trade barriers with the sixth largest economy in the world. They'll be lining up to get or maintain good trade agreements with us.
  1. We are shackled to a greatly expanded number of poorer nations that have been brought into the EU to expand the political reach of a bunch of unaccountable EU politicians, not for our economic benefit. Despite the EU consisting of 28 countries, the UK economy contributes one sixth of the EU's total economy, the second largest after Germany. The EU project needs us far more than we need it, as we are a 'net contributor' and basically subsidise the poorer countries.
  1. Uncontrolled, unselective, high net immigration putting unacceptable pressure on public services - and now women's rights. We need complete control back over our own borders - and to start using it. Given the strength of our position based on points 1 and 2, our politicians could actually show some backbone and insist on these controls in the 'renegotiation' but I don't see this happening.
Drinkstoomuchcoffee · 15/01/2016 10:11

I have not seen any discussion on this thread of the impact of a leave vote on the future of the UK. SNP have indicated that should the UK as a whole vote to leave, they would see that as a green light for a second referendum on Scottish independence. Presumably Wales and NI would feel the same.
Any thoughts from the leavers?

SonyaAtTheSamovar · 15/01/2016 10:24

I think there may be a surprise for Nicola Sturgeon on how Scots vote. Scotland is not as different to UK as many commentators think. Would be intersting to see current scottish polling figures on eu question .

ThroughThickAndThin01 · 15/01/2016 11:05

It would be very interesting to see a purely Scottish vote.

I think if the UK votes to leave, then there will be another Scottish referendum and it may well vote out of the UK.

As a 'leave' voter, the threat of Scotland separating wouldn't make me vote differently, although I would prefer we were United.

SilverOldie2 · 15/01/2016 11:08

Approval by Westminster is required to hold a further referendum I believe but I'm sure that wouldn't stop the SNP. If we leave Europe and Scotland does become independent and they applied to join the EU I think other countries with separatist issues (like Spain) would block their application.

I doubt independence would be tenable for Wales and NI but that's just my guess.