Quick Poll: EU stay or leave?

[BlueSmarties76]

Would you vote to stay or leave the EU?

Quick poll.

I would rather the UK be poor, but maintain its values.

As Giles Fraser said on Question Time last week, "Democracy is not for sale".

I thought that 10% 'built on' was bollocks, because they include lakes, rivers, mountains, and even beaches in their 'land' calculations??

Yup. That's basically it.

Also, people want to live in the SE, and that is where most newcomers gravitate to. The SE is very heavily built on, and remaining green space is precious. There is more land going begging in places where nobody wants to live, but what use is that?

I am from the US
I think that explains quite a bit, actually. (Not America-bashing in the slightest, but I do think that America has a very different set of starting conditions when it comes to immigration. )

I thought that 10% 'built on' was bollocks, because they include lakes, rivers, mountains, and even beaches in their 'land' calculations??

why exactly should they be excluded?

I think that explains quite a bit, actually. (Not America-bashing in the slightest, but I do think that America has a very different set of starting conditions when it comes to immigration. )

we are more similar than you think. In fact, lots of the same ideas about immigration floating around in both countries.

The mistake the EU made was including poorer countries in the free movement so quickly.

I was thinking of Eastern Europe or the outskirts of Rome - anywhere that building controls operate with a blind eye or barely exist at all.

why exactly should they be excluded, because you can't build on water. Or farm on the beach. Pretending the uk is a prairie of open greenness with only a few bods rattling about you are silly. We really are full.

Why exactly should they (lakes, beaches etc) be excluded?

Seriously?!

because you can't build on water.

but we can enjoy. Why does it matter if you don't want to build on it anyway?

In any case, excluding all the rivers etc, what is the estimate?

and is it anywhere near as dire as all the "should we just concrete over the countryside" people suggest it is?

I hope you don't mind me asking but if you are American, then what has this got to do with you anyway?

I live in the UK. I have IDL.

IDL?

I'm guessing it's Indefinite Leave to Remain

oops. yes, indefinite leave to remain. it is commonly ILR. I don't know why I typed IDL. makes it sound like a disease.

Stay

In any case, excluding all the rivers etc, what is the estimate?

It's hard to say, because you have got to factor in the whole thing about "The places where people generally want to live are the heavily built up places."

we are more similar than you think. In fact, lots of the same ideas about immigration floating around in both countries.

Sure, but there some differences in the starting conditions.

The US is thinly populated for a start, whereas the UK is very densely populated--and if you break us down into our components, England is actually the most densely packed in Europe, and close to the top of the world. (The Netherlands used to be more densely populated, but we have overtaken them.)

The majority population in the US (white culturally-Christian people) are the descendants of invaders, and the US has always been a multicultural country. The UK by contrast is a country where the majority population is also the indigenous population, and that means that the immigration debate "feels" different right from the start to many people.

The US has hardly any welfare state to protect. The UK does. This makes the debate more complicated and it also means that is is not a simple left/right, red/blue debate. For a number of complex reasons, there tends to be a trade-off between generous welfare states and generous immigration policies in the long run (which is part of the reason why the Swedes are struggling desperately right now).

The majority of immigrants into the US are of Latin heritage, and integration is mostly pretty good--certainly compared to Europe. Relatively few immigrants to the US are Muslim. Immigration is inherently more complicated in Europe, partly because we tend to get more immigrants from extremely poor and "difficult" parts of the world (for historical and geographical reasons) and partly because as I said, there is a tension between immigration and the welfare state. We are also far more secular than the States, and the religiosity of many Muslim immigrants does not fit neatly into our societies.

I think the Uk has been exceptionally generous to refugees for centuries. Think of all the refugee groups who have temporarily dominated London's east end over the last few centuries.

There have been the French Huguenots in the 17th century, then Russian and Polish Jews in the late 1800s/ early 1900s.
Then elsewhere we had a large influx of Afro-Caribeans in the 50s and 60s. We took in Indians and Pakistanis fleeing Kenya in the late 60s and we gave a home to many of the Vietnamese boat people in the 70s.

The key thing though is that they come slowly enough that they do not overwhelm our society or our infrastructure. That's what is different this time. I can see the Eastern European migrants just want to earn more. However, those men in Cologne at Christmas - is that really how someone who has fled for his life and reached sanctuary behaves?

Leave I'll still be European and outward looking. The two are not connected.

I'll tell my DH who works in a bank that I voted to stay. But in the privacy of the voting booth I will vote leave.

However, those men in Cologne at Christmas - is that really how someone who has fled for his life and reached sanctuary behaves?

No it's not. But it seems that those men most probably weren't refugees either - they're from countries in N. Africa. But if Europe leaves its doors hanging open its got to expect that every chancer on earth is going to try their luck. And this is a major problem with the EU. With 27 member states, all with their own agendas, nothing ever gets agreed and acted upon. Look at what happened last year - 1.1 million people flooded unchecked into Europe. Another 170,000 have already poured in in 2016. Now look at the situation in Greece since Austria and Macedonia closed their borders - utter chaos. The EU is a disorganised rabble who can't agree on anything.

Sure, but there some differences in the starting conditions.

I agree with everything you said. There are differences. But I am not sure what that has to do with the EU. We are denser, but not nearly as dense as the people who seem to think there is only one tree left in the UK. I live in central London and I can fairly quickly get to the countryside.

My problem with leaving is that AT BEST we will get a deal that is bad, and it will be bad for reasons that many people won't see. What we may be able to negotiate is free access to the european market, without free movement. Unfortunately, many people would love this, but this would be a huge disaster. You think it's bad that poor people are coming here and dropping wages? Wait until those poor people can't come, but our industry can move to bulgaria. That's what people want to sign up to. And industry will move. Not all, the UK has huge draws, but for some it will be a matter of much lower costs elsewhere.

As I said, this free movement thing all comes down to housing in my opinion. If we didn't have a problem, this would be much less of an issue. I think the UK would still be eurosceptic, but free movement would be less of an issue.

I agree chili. If David Cameron had been able to get a treaty change that allowed the UK to opt out of free movement then I think most people would be okay with staying in the EU. Its the uncontrollable nature of the open-borders that bothers people. Our NHS, housing, schools, etc are all under so much pressure already. The thought of another 330,000 people or more flowing in each and every year is really scary. The growth in our services and housing will never be able to keep pace with population growth like that - even if, economically, its good for the country to have lots of people coming here to do low-wage jobs.

I can't seem to grasp why we need a great 'deal' after we leave anyway?? Surely, we trade with the rest of the world if Europe isn't the best deal anymore. We can trade freely with whoever offers us the best choice, at the best time, with no restrictions! All this "nasty divorce' talk and how Europe will punish us! Rubbish! In any relationship it is the one who has the power who controls things. We will have power over our trade, how can they do anything to us??

stay

Its the little things that will tip the balance. e.g. the EU has just delayed plans to take away the fast boiling kettles because of the upcoming referendum. If they had let the new rule come into force before the Summer, it would have added another % to the leave campaign.

Its annoying that they will still do it after we've voted to stay but I suppose it at least demonstrates some awareness of what annoys the British about the EU even if they don't care enough to stop with the micro-managing our lives.