Quick Poll: EU stay or leave?

[BlueSmarties76]

Would you vote to stay or leave the EU?

Quick poll.

Leave. EU will still sell their cakes to us.

Interesting Var, thank you.

Phew, ThisCakeFilledIsle, I was beginning to wobble a bit at the thought of no more sachertorte, croquembuche and baklava

I'm not convinced that Cameron has actually obtained 'special status'. His deal has to be voted on by the European parliament AFTER our referendum and could be blocked or changed by countries that benefit from monies sent home by their ex-pat countrymen. that Cameron is trying to stop.

The European Court of Justice could also strike down the deal as being discriminatory. What happens if we subsequently find what we've been promised and voted for in the referendum was immediately overturned?

Priti Patel, one of the TORY MPs backing Leave, tweeted yesterday " The EU deal isn't legally binding and could be ignored by EU courts".

Martin Howe QC says that Cameron's deal on ever closer union has no legal consequence.

Dave says he has a legally binding 'special deal' but some European law experts are saying that unless the deal is embodied in a Treaty it has no status. No Treaty change is due. The people who will be ratifying any future Treaty with this 'deal' in it cannot be bound by agreements their predecessors may have made as in many countries Treaties can only be passed by referendum of the people.

This is becoming a bit of a mess.

There is a left wing argument and critique of DC "renegotiation" Here

From the blog link

The Tories are absolutely intent on protecting the interests of their financial backers (bankers, private health corporations, tax-dodgers, the inherited wealth aristocracy, the idle rentier class) above all other considerations, and their appalling interventions in the EU have proven this over and again.

The Left wing people that I know either back the EU whole-heartedly because they fear their rights would be stripped if they did not have the protection of the EU (although the Rail Maritime Union is saying Leave and other unions have yet to declare), or loathe the EU because they see it as the blogger does.

There's also another camp that thinks 'it's nice to be nice' and like the idea of being 'Europeans', when it's obvious that everyone on this continent is a self-evidently European, just not a fan of the EU.

Both sides, right wing and left wing have a strong "Leave" argument.

It's the liberal/neo-liberal/capitalist Centre-ground that has the strongest "Stay" argument.

I think Cameron is looking desperate by doing this: Brexit Cabinet rebels banned from accessing government material to support campaign to leave EU under David Cameron's strict new gagging rules. I can only find a daily mail link on the subject which I know is not to everyone's taste:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3459873/Cameron-loyalist-William-Hague-demands-Brexit-rebels-campaign-spare-time-PM-heads-London-sell-deal-voters.html

If his pathetic negotiation attempt hadn't made my mind up then this would have. That's just petty.

If you stay in then you must accept open borders that permit 400,000 EU citizens the right to live in the UK and use our schools, NHS etc.

You cannot have a free NHS that is open to 400,00 million EU citizens and that number will increase as poor nations such as Albania join. That is a plain fact.

You cannot have a welfare state that provides a standard of living well above most of that of the poorer EU countries and not expect them to want to use it. I would too.

If you want to preserve the NHS and our welfare state then the only way to achieve that is to control who can use it and you cannot do that while we remain in the EU.

Therefore the only sensible option is OUT.

I think I may have linked to the attached before - I found it very interesting reading: www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/Brexit%20Entry%20170_final_bio_web.pdf

That would seem a realistic view Springing.

What always amazes is me is when people think it is possible to be told what their world will look like if we leave.

The answer is that it will largely the same as it does now, just as it will if we remain. But they want the fine detail and no one can give them for leave because they do not have any better a crystal ball than if we stay.

If we leave, then the EU will have less money to play with and France will push for much closer integration so that the euro has a hope of working. Maybe this will work against all the odds, but more likely, it will be the last straw for less committed states and they will begin to make a move to leave too. That may well cause the disintegration of the EU and what that will mean for any of the other 27 countries, or for us, no one knows.

On the other hand, if we stay, France will still push for closer integration to make the EU work, the EU migrants and the refugees will still arrive in large numbers and once settled, send for their families to join them. We will have to accept a lower standard of living as our hospitals, schools, housing stock etc becomes full to saturation point. They will only stop living when our standard of living has fallen to the levels they can get at home.

I think our only chance of flourishing is to leave. If we don't, then we are tied to a union that is committed to the euro, won't get its act together to expand its economies, and insists on being able to put its citizens in our country if they want to come here. It works two ways of course, but a rich pensioner in Spain or France doesn't compare to a minimum rate worker with a family of three.
If we leave, we can use our resources and energies to make our country better whereas inside the EU, anything we will do will be subject to their rules and must be shared with their citizens.

Another comment about Brexit ministers being treated like second class ...
From the Telegraph...

"Brexit ministers blocked from Government briefings..
Ministers campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union have been banned by Whitehall’s most senior civil servant from accessing official documents and prevented from receiving briefings.
In a move like to enrage Eurosceptics, Sir Jeremy Heywood, the Cabinet secretary, has told ministers that when they campaign on EU matters they will no longer have access to official briefing papers, or get help with developing ideas for speeches.
Instead departmental officials will only be able to provide them with a basic fact checking service."

That would be fine if it worked both ways, but David Cameron confirmed on Monday that he is already using the civil service to help him with the campaign.

Surely the electoral commission will have something to say about this?

The whole thing's bent - press, politicians, the lot of 'em.
They're all on a gravy train and don't want to get off.
Out please.

Leave... The sooner the better

What always amazes is me is when people think it is possible to be told what their world will look like if we leave.

I agree. There's equally no way of knowing what will happen if we stay. Just because things are one way now, doesn't mean they will stay that way. The EU is very different now from the Common Market we chose to stay in a few decades ago.

I'm leaning towards leaving.

It works two ways of course, but a rich pensioner in Spain or France doesn't compare to a minimum rate worker with a family of three.

ridiculous caricature. you have been to the City? full of europeans in gainful employment.

I worked in the City, not just went for a visit. Yes, there are lots and lots of Europeans (and every other continent's people) doing complex jobs that earn taxes for Britain.

However, it is ridiculous of you to give the City as an example as you cannot extrapolate what you see there to the the rest of the UK.

Didn't they say all this doom and gloom stuff when the UK didn't join the single currency aswell? That turned out to be a masterstroke of a decision. I read somewhere yesterday that its the same companies who said we shoudl join the Euro that say we should not leave the EU aswell.

In 1996/1997, with the euro launch coming soon, I went to a debate in the City about it - mostly economists and political strategy advisors were speaking. Speaker after speaker said the same thing: monetary union (i.e single currencies) only work if you have political union.
The EU did not have political union at that time, so it was never going to work. Its early launch was based on the hope that it wouldn't fall apart before political union was achieved.

A more sensible route would be get full political union first but at that time the European political class were not being honest about its ambitions.

If the euro is to work, Europe needs to have a single centralised government with the power to order the people right across the continent to do things that aren't in their best interests. They can have local governments for purely local issues, but anything of importance needs to be decided upon in one place and the people must accept it. The EU and the euro will not succeed unless this happens.

If the British want that, then the EU is the best place for them. If not, then we need to leave asap and start making our own destiny.

the Europeans hate us anyway, look at what's happened in the Eurovision Song Contest since they introduced public voting

I've always felt like this. If Europe was a mumsnet thread, we'd be the idiot friend doing the free childcare, or lifts to work, and donating to gifts for colleagues who hate us and not being invited to the party! The thread would be full of words like toxic, frenemy, and calls to ltb!

However, it is ridiculous of you to give the City as an example as you cannot extrapolate what you see there to the the rest of the UK.

I was countering the caricature that we are supporting all these poor immigrants.

Many are in well paying jobs, in and out of the City.

and my original comment related to the majority who immigrate from Britain into the EU or emigrate to the UK. Other posters describe the number of British people who have emigrated in the last 20 years and are pretending that its a like for like swap. But its not.

We send lots of people to Australia, NZ and Canada, but the majority of those who go to Europe either go to somewhere warm that they can buy a property and spend their retirement income in, or they go to somewhere like Germany (or Luxembourg) to do skilled work.

If we can start choosing again who comes here, then it will be better for our country. Other countries can have the same right to choose, but I'll be surprised if they decide they don't want people who come to spend money in their country or to provide skilled labour for their industries to infill their shortages.