Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve

[Cellardoor1]

I've just read this and I'm shocked that such a thing could happen. A group of around 1,000 men gathered and assaulted at least 60 women and girls and also pickpocketed people. Apparently the news wasn't released until now out of fears it could stir up tension as the men appeared to be of Arab/North African appearance, possibly refugees.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cologne-police-chief-condemns-sex-assaults-years-eve-36083833

Nataliya I think it's Sansoora's very weak attempt to shut down an incredible thread. I lurk more than I post. This thread is one of the best I have seen in a long time. Due to my personal context I feel affected by what happened in Cologne. I cannot recall many threads of this length and depth that have been so informative, supportive and positive all.

MoreShabbythanchic
The man of the future will be of mixed race. Today's races and classes will gradually disappear owing to the vanishing of space, time, and prejudice. The Eurasian-Negroid race of the future, similar in its appearance to the Ancient Egyptians, will replace the diversity of peoples with a diversity of individuals.

This is most interesting but understandable, because it has become increasingly difficult to govern a nation. Everyone knows their rights, wants exclusivity and to keep their own culture and traditions. I think this may be the social experiment some posters feel they are in. Once we are homogenized, without ethnic differences, no borders, and all traditions have fallen away, the experiment will have succeeded.

OK, hidden, that makes a lot more sense now. You see this attack as an attack on the freedom of assembly, have I understood you correctly? In that case I agree, it definitely is.
BetaDad - you are talking about Cologne and the CDU/CSU badlands though, right? Because Germany is a large and weirdly disparate country and there are plenty of places that aren't like that at all. Btw, tell your friend she is entitled to a place in a Hort for her children after school (contact the Jugendamt).

To be fair to BetaDad, I have heard (and read) that Germany is culturally more conservative, with regard to women, than the UK.

I watched a BBC documentary where a half-German woman went back to live there for a few months (to a city, can't remember which one) and was pretty shocked at how cultural expectations of her differed and by how constrained she felt: she was expected to look after her children, not to work or work only part-time, women's chit-chat concentrated on children and domestic issues etc.

Pinkchampchoccies I think it's Sansoora's very weak attempt to shut down an incredible thread. I lurk more than I post. This thread is one of the best I have seen in a long time. Due to my personal context I feel affected by what happened in Cologne.

Yes, it is a great thread and I note that just a few posters are beginning to lose their guilt about voicing elephant-in-the-room realities and starting to discuss in a rational way. I don't understand Samsoora's attitude.

ugly - I am talking about Frankfurt and a well off higher middle class family. Not sure of the politics of the local area but the children go to an international school.

I worked in Austria too and the culturally conservative attitudes are very similar although more more obvious or perhaps a less well covered up.

I don't understand Samsoora's attitude.

It could be the traditional left wing (and before I proceed, I should indicate that I would regard myself as RADICALLY left wing) conflation of anti-sexism and anti-racism with anti-westernism. It's quite in evidence on this page; You cannot criticise the actions of a group of men from a particular culture without first saying that western men are just as bad (or all men, for shorthand) or that all of western culture is just as bad. It's no less a kneejerk reaction than the rightwing counterpoint that other cultures are automatically inferior to our own and prevents the development of a discussion that can address the specific issues that arise.

Or, for an even better analogy, it's the same as the more odious MRAs derailing discussions about domestic violence by overemphasising aggression by women in the name of 'fairness'.

Nun 2050 seems to be the year up to which reasonably accurate population predictions are possible.

Moreshabbythanchic. Man of the future ....... you may be onto something. Whenever I have asked myself what on earth are the politicians everywhere doing, I could never answer the question. But this might explain why Europe, Canada and USA are allowing people in in very large numbers.

If only it were possible to correlate precisely numbers in/numbers out we could bring in the same number of migrants that the country loses to emigration and death.

In that way, public services, schools, water, etc would never be overburdened. If we have stumbled onto something, then this is definitely an audacious long con.

Where multiculturalism and women's rights collide, I choose women's rights.

I am a very moderate, typical swing voter-type. I will not vote as I am expected to do or am supposed to do, if I think my fundamental rights and those of my daughters'are being eroded.

Nataliya I think it's Sansoora's very weak attempt to shut down an incredible thread.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Im enjoying the rational viewpoint of the majority of the posters. Its just a shame about the others which are for the most part load of shite.

[[http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/home/10808950,10808950.html
Sexual attacks on NYE also in Berlin at Brandenburger Tor]]

So pointing out that groping a woman is not a crime in Germany and that German law and German culture do very very little to protect women from sexual assault is a kneejerk reaction, is it Meph? How very radical of you.

BetaDad - Hessen has actually committed to providing after-school childcare during the working week. PM me if you'd like me to find any info for your friend. In general, there is a very significant North-South cultural divide in Germany (and Austria). You would definitely not find the attitudes you describe in Hamburg, say, or Berlin.

Agree 2016. We have fought hard for our rights (suffragettes, made in Dagenham equal rights act). If necessary the women of this country will fight again - of that I have no doubt.

I'm sorry to say that whilst city dwelling middle class women may see a lot or all of their friends with families working, rurally it seems to be a different story.

I lived for many years in a small rural village, and had children there. This was only a handful of years ago. I found it incredibly difficult to get back to work afterwards. "Full day" childcare finished at 2, primary school finished at 11:30, my neighbours openly disapproved of me going back to work with young children. Many kindergartens shut at 2:30 so if you work full time you can't use them. When I asked my DH what German women do, he simply said they stay at home.

Still perfectly normal for many people.

Thankfully now I live in the city and full time (proper full time until 4ish) school is becoming more usual, although I still haven't heard of the sort of wrap around care available in the uk. One GREAT thing is the cost of cod care though - full time nursery for a three year old costs me less than 50€ a month.

On the other side of the coin, if you want to stay at home, I have found that the government is very keen to give you money to help you do to, which is something that I find the uk is not so good on, a question of outlook I suppose.

Sorry, I realise I haven't made it clear that I'm talking ab life in rural Germany

You cannot criticise the actions of a group of men from a particular culture without first saying that western men are just as bad (or all men, for shorthand) or that all of western culture is just as bad

I know and this is (to misquote a pp) what sickens me to my stomach.

Because under Western culture, women have rights - to go out and celebrate with friends, to go in taxis, to spend money we have earned, to wear what we want to, to be heard if we are attacked, to be listened to with respect and treated with dignity by the police, lawyers, hospital.

The events in Cologne show that there are men from non-Western cultures who do not think those rights are important for women.

They, and sadly many Western apologists, refer to the protectionism ingrained in their culture which negates the need for equality law, and indeed can be seen as superior as, let's face it, few Islamic women are vocal
critics.

I was educated at a Saudi Muslim school and lived and worked in the ME for many years.

Anyone who thinks these young men are arrant chancers, and not representative of a deeply-held cultural sexist anti-women stance is woefully (wilfully?) ignorant.

natailya what a very odd post. What 'experiment' ? I come across all sorts of mixed race marriages which have arisen due to the increased travel in the world and people of different backgrounds coming to know each other at work or whatever. Its not an 'experiment'.

onthephone - I absolutely believe you. There is a lot of annoying lipservice paid to providing wraparound childcare, but how this translates into actual services depends very much on where you happen to live. You are legally entitled to childcare - the amount depends on how long your working hourse are - but of course this is absolutely meaningless as not enough funds are ever allocated to ensure that childcare facilities actually exist. The homecare bonus introduced in 2012 by the centre-right government you referred to has actually been deemed in contravention of German Basic Law and was overturned this year.

MephistophelesApprentice Ooo er. That means no one can ever state that an act or behaviour is wrong in itself. That's relativism .... actions or points of view have no absolute truth or validity within themselves.

A close English friend of mine is a Communist (you see how tolerant I am-LOL) of 40 yrs standing. She tells me that an anti-woman ideology of this magnitude, cannot be conflated with the wrongness of men everywhere, nor all the antis you mention.

I am from the ME, and I can tell you however disappointing you might find western men and all that's wrong with the West and its policies, you have no understanding of the grossness of life in other parts of the world, especially for wimmin.

ugly - my friends children are now 13 and 15 so perhaps not such a constraint I suppose but it seems the cultural expectation is still there.

I have never really been able to figure it out. She could afford wall-to-wall nannies but its not 'the done thing'. Her DH is UK educated multinational and multicultured brought up in part by a nanny himself so I am sure it is not him imposing it on her.

Getting back to the topic of the thread. I think we all agree the assaults took place and there is no question of that or the seriousness of it. There seems to have been an 'ethnic element too and the police seem to have failed to get on top of things in the period before the assaults took place.

I was wondering if anybody has experience of say being in a similar situation with white German men. Is being groped normal everyday experience in Germany? I know it happens everywhere but is it more prevalent and accepted and perpetrated also by white men in Germany than anywhere else?

I was in Paris a few decades ago on NYE and it seemed to me to be quite anarchic with men throwing bottles in the street so they smashed near people. Its a 'tradition' I was told. There were noticeably a lot of young 'Arabic men' in groups (there were other men in groups as wel as men with women in groups obviously too) and it seemed to be quite out of control. Nothing happened to me and my two female companions but we wanted to get home - it wasn't nice being out. There didnt seem to be a police presence. I just wonder how close Paris is to this sort of incident.

I think Natailya was referring to Moreshabbythanchic's original post.

"I was wondering if anybody has experience of say being in a similar situation with white German men. Is being groped normal everyday experience in Germany? I know it happens everywhere but is it more prevalent and accepted and perpetrated also by white men in Germany than anywhere else?"

• Yes, you will get harrassed, groped, catcalled and threatened by white men in Germany and if you go to the police they will laughin your face. Here's some reading material (some of the stories are in English): berlin.ihollaback.org/

Maybe sansoora is referring to me as I have contributed quite a lot on this thread but I don't think there is any benefit by checking and pointing out what other threads posters have contributed on.

FWIW I have found this thread very informative and educational, I have enjoyed hearing others experiences and points of view, even if I haven't always agreed with them. Also, its great how we can discuss this incident without anyone being called racist or bigoted, in a mature way.