Veiled Muslim Woman to deliver C4 Christmas message.

[uwila]

What do Christians think? Is this offensive? I think it is. But, then I think the culprit is probably CH4, not the Muslim community.

Veiled Muslim Woman to Deliver C4 Christmas Message

Discuss....

giraffe, theres no controversy - it is not required by the religion. People confuse cultural tradition with religious requirement. I am uncomfortable about regarding anything with tolerance, that disables the wearer.

and giraffe, if you dont think that psychological advangtage comes into it -then you are lucky, not to have come across religious nutters, who play the more religous than you game.

giraffe - I am not against them wearing the veil
out and about. I don't think though that it is appropriate for a television presenter or newsreader.

As I say just my personal opinion.

Calm down, Giraffe. I'm not sure there has been this "outraged from Tunbridge Wells" response that you seem to be looking for.

The concept has raised an eyebrow, but most posters took about 5 minutes to see this for what it is, which is an attempt to be radical and controversial on the part of C4.

No-one is pre-empting what she is going to say. I am pretty sure that most people will listen, without prejudice, to what she does say. I for one will probably watch it to see what it is about, and I suspect that it will be very thought provoking and interesting.

I must admit that I used a very bad example when I said a bikini clad woman on Eid. I was trying to think of an analogy, but this was a terrible one, which I promptly admitted if you look at my subsequent posts.

Although I am not a Christian or any other faith, I do feel a bit sorry for Christians at the moment. Sometimes I feel they are being goaded unnecessarily about their religion. If other faith groups were treated like this it would be unacceptable, but this wouldn't happen. And nor should it, because minorities do need protection.

I am rather fascinated by the veil and associated issues. I am honestly not convinced either way. I do feel that it is an Arab tradition rather than Muslim, that is being adopted as a kind of move towards radicalism and marking difference. It isn't up to me whether people wear it, but deep down I don't like the idea of living in a place where it was widely adopted.

can't remember who but someone said: "I wouldn't expect a priest to get up and give message for Ramadan" - why not? Archb of C and the Pope often give messages of support and fraternal do dah for Muslim/Jewish/Hindu etc ceremonies. The local priest here (muslim country) made a point of attending iftar with local muslim leaders etc... not to mention the pope recently saying some fairly incendiary comments about muslims...

I think its as welcome as any other minority group. If a some one from a white upper class family, maybe descendant of German stock, multi-home owning, cloistered upbringing, CofE member, hunting loving, member of the armed forces, with a tendency to wear hats in public and immensely rich can speak for Britain then I think a muslim woman has just as much relevance.

I was lucky enough to meet the Dalai Lama (surprisingly not that short in real life) and his view was that we worry too much about the differences and not enough about the similarities. At the event he was at a local nutter with a religious bent (you know the kind) stuffed a pamphlet in his hand to the consternation of the security/hosts team. He read it with care and then had a conversation with this person. Thats the kind of leadership we should get from our religions imo.

WhenSantawent

Good point about the goading of Christians in this country. If a satirist drew a cartoon of JC, I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid. However, how many satirist in this country would have the courage to do that of old Allah? That would be something worth addressing in C4's Christmas message.

Yes i too wish all our religious leaders could be like the Dalai Lama. That would solve a lot of problems. [I quite like the theory that JC was thought by the 3 Kings to be the next Dalai Lama, and they took him away and trained him in Buddhism during the time the bible doesn't account for his life.]
I do find it odd that some people get really sanctimonious about Christmas when a Muslim is involved. I mean, Christmas is not about Christ's birth for most people in this country anyway. And Christmas was a pagan festival before it became a Christian one. So although for me it is a Christian festival, I don't expect it to be for everyone else. Why on earth shouldn't a Muslim say something on Christmas day? I would be interested in what she has to say.

WhatwouldJesusdo, are a muslim? Don't think so. How on earth can you think your subjective opinions on why muslim women wear the veil are 'fact'? eg, it is 'vanity' that makes women wear the veil because they think they are so tempting to other men. I don't agree at all. And your name is rather ironic. What would Jesus do? I would suspect he would respect the woman's desire to wear a veil.

Wow Meowmix- would love to meet the Dalai Lama.

I have a Bible, Qur'an, Dhammapada and several Hindu texts on my desk. When I read them I am not struck by anything other than a central theme that if you're nice to others, nice things will happen to you- whether in heaven, Paradise or the next life is kinda irrelevant tbh. being nice to others- a scarily radical concept in this day and age (though MN Chrsitmas has done a little to convinve me its still possible ) that is pretty ahrd to argue with, imo.

Now, radicals who want to tkae it further, or who believe the material is largely disredited alternative works (eg some Ahadith according to Scholars) is another thing altogether.

Celebrate the similarities, let the differences lie- we'd all be a lot better off for it.

sorry if i have misunderstood you in anyway, just thought that was what you were saying..[I'll go now!]

Ruty an excellent post RE Jesus- exactly how I read Jesus's teaching (and one of the main reasons I gave up on Christianity for myself- a tendency for judging and the like when that just isn't my perception of the teachings. )

Peachy I think if Buddhist texts had been translated into Greek and then into King James I English, they would sound very different and not very Buddhist at all!

speedymama when Spitting Image made a puppet of Jesus Muslims did complain.

I started a thread recently because I was surprised by what my ds was being taught about Christmas at school - ie not much to do with the Nativity - and it transpired that this is now the norm in many schools. So it would be interesting to know what people really feel about Christmas - do they see it as having any spiritual value or is it more about being-nice-to-people and giving presents and having some family time.

AFAIK it is part of Ch4's remit to cater for minorities. It is an alternative approach and I cannot believe the intent is to cause offence.

Can anyone explain to me why the veil is becoming so popular at the moment, when it has been a very rare sight up until now?

Is this a case of "Well I am not being told what to do by them, so I am going to bl**dy well wear it"?

Well if she's going to deliver a speech with a piece of cloth over her mouth I hope she's going to speak up a bit.

That could be true, I have to say that Buddhism hasn''t been the strongest element of my course (I got OK grades, ) but several people seemed to find it really hard)and we didn't get to cover any of the more sritical stuff which was shame.

I will also admit to focusing on the Mahayana as opposed to Therevada side of it (probably got that wrong way round as ever) as I do find the focus on yourself only monastic aspect a bit .

Really hoing to get to do one of the languages at some point, not offered at my Uni, but it will probably be Arabic. Without langauges there seems to be a huge gap missing, mind you my professor doesn't have any either and he's really successful.

lol better change my name. I often ask myself this question, but cant call myself christian, because I often dont follow jesus's advice.

ruty, I was married for 8 years to a man from a muslim country. I therefore know veil wearing women, headscarf wearing women and non headscarf muslim women. They are my children's family. I know loads of stories about why women wear the veil, why they dont, why they study, why they dont and how islam and local culture influence all sorts of other aspects of women's lives.

I keep repeating this, but you dont seem to believe it. The veil is a cultural thing, not a religious requirement (it counts as "extra points" but is not a necessity, and is usually worn by women in cultures where it is a cultural tradition, ime). Jesus may quite likely have taken a tolerant line to it on cultural grounds - because he lived in a mediterranean culture 2000 years ago.

Veil definitely cultural- there's an allusion to something that could be veiling in the ahadith, but its not specified: its one of those texts that can be read a few ways. And iirc it was specifically directed at the wives of Muhammad, but I may not recall correctly.

I think next year C4 should give Naturists a go as they are a minority group.

On a serious note, I think if women are going to increasingly wear the veil as a statement, then the more visibility at the level of press, the better, to get people used to it.

speedymama- you brought up the cartoon of allah. i'm sure this was discussed on here at the time. however, i would point out that the difference in the two situations you have mentioned is that to have any type of image of allah in islam is blasphemous. whereas in christianity they use the crucifix, paintings of jesus and mary, statues etc etc, in islam it is wrong to have these types of images. that is why the images of allah in the dutch press caused such an uproar initially..before it all got out of hand.

fair enough whatwouldjesusdo! Tho I think Christ would still preach tolerance for the veil and other cultural/religious differences today.

Peachy, I think the interesting thing about Christ's teachings, are that they are a marriage of Judaism [community, living by social laws] and Buddhism [spirituality of the individual, equality, love] I think they take the best of both, though i would need to study it more to prove it conclusively!

images of Allah? I thought the cartoons were of Mohammed.

fwiw I object to the christian image of God as a beardy white man ...

generally representations of religious figures are frowned upon - that da vinci image of the christ figure on the cross (cannot remember the name of it but oldies may remember the opening credits to world in action? that one) is verbotten in the muslim world too because he's a nudey rudey in it.

Butr Christianity is in a special priviledged postion in this country. Most of our holidays were based on Christian holy days. There are no back holidays for Muslim holy days afaik. One of the house of our parliament is packed to the rafters with lords of the christian church. The heir to the throne is the defender of the faith - much as he might like to call himself 'defender of the faiths'. There are still some restrictions on what were are allowed to do on a Sunday because it is the Christian holy day. And by and large no-one bats an eyelid when a dog-collared vicar or a veiled nun walks down the street.

Christians are not in the same boat as other religions. I really hope they can refrain from getting on the 'oh I'm so offended by that opinion' bandwagon. Opinions hurt nobody.