Man in Saudi Arabia to face 300+ lashes for possessing alcohol

[HermioneWeasley]

Clearly this is an insane and barbaric punishment, particularly on top of 12 months in prison.

But part of me thinks that if you choose to live in such a repulsive regime and break the law, don't you have to accept it?

Should the British government intervene in another country's sanctions?

I used to live in the Middle East ( not Saudi) and it was the hypocrisy that really got to me. We often saw the locals hiring rooms in a world famous hotel, they drank, took drugs and used prostitutes while condoning expats for their behaviour

Itismebut
It's about having choice, if I want to lie in the gutter with my legs akimbo then I want to be free to do that ( let's face it, it won't be the first time) it is such an oppressive society for women and the western world should be challenging this....doubt Cameron has the balls though

Condemning

Just ignore him ! He's an insecure, goady non-entity.

Desert, I'm guessing you live in a more liberal (!) city to the one I knew.

There, the religious police beat female children and women who showed hair. With hard wooden sticks. On the back and shoulders and skulls.

They were not allowed in taxis.

On which note, in another gulf state I worked in, I was often ignored by taxi drivers because I was a single female in business dress. Memorably, I was once spectacularly hawked on for that reason

I digress.

for ordinary Saudi women I cannot imagine what it is like not to be able to just "do what you want

The ones I knew had all sorts of tricks and ruses and frequently did exactly what they wanted. Money talks and rules can be bent if not broken. More blind eyes. Good for them, I say.

The real heartbreak are the countless Indian, Philippine and Thai women working there, whose lives are unimaginable and who are, quite literally, slaves.

They cannot drive or leave their place of work, do not earn huge tax-free salaries, live in compounds, have the opportunity to brew siddiqui or wine, and are literally voiceless and faceless. They do not have the choice whether to break the law and if harm is done to them, nobody cares. No international outcry, no column inches, no photos.

This is a bit off-topic, but is Isitmebut the last person on the internet to be using underlining for emphasis? The extraordinary thing is that it's not even offered as an option on Mumsnet. How does she do it? More importantly, why?

'Bold: hello gives hello
Underline: hello gives hello
Italics: hello gives hello
Strikethrough: hello gives hello'

hack it is an option, see below., and it's a free world, why shouldn't she/he?

Muslims believe God is merciful. The Saudis should pardon this old sick man and the young lad as well.

That the Saudis think it's fine to crucify a boy challenging the status quo is beyond belief.

Excellent point Olive, the way a lot of domestic workers (and indeed construction workers) are treated in Saudi and some other ME countries is truly shocking, and I can't help but feel that some expats are complicit in that.

A Saudi employer CUT OFF THE ARM of her Indian maid for not working hard enough BBC
Many cases of rape, beatings, basically enslavement of domestic staff from countries like India, Pakistan, The Philippines.
Saudi courts normally ignore even murders of migrants.

Migrant workers cannot leave Saudi Arabia without the consent of their employer, which creates the conditions for horrific abuse.

Saudi blogger Raif Badawi was sentenced to 10 years jail and 1,000 lashes because criticising the regime was classed as criticising Islam.

Horrible barbaric country. No surprise Saudi Arabia are the ones who sponsor ISIS and Al Qaeda. Their principles are strikingly similar. Disgusts me how this nation and the US supplies weapons to Saudi Arabia.

Nonnainglese: "It's a free world, why shouldn't she/he?"

Yes, I somehow missed it as an option. It's not really a free world, is it (surely that's the point of the thread), but fortunately I am not proposing that isitmebut be flogged, beheaded or imprisoned for using underline. I'm just pointing out that it's a very odd choice of emphasis, given that we no longer use manual typewriters. It's distracting and makes her stuff harder to read. It's not quite up there with people who use unnecessary ellipsis or write "worse" when they mean "worst" but it's irritating nonetheless.

Hahahahhahaha ... if I had a £ for every time those who didn't like THEIR opinions challenged and so accused me of shouty, goady, I underline, I use bold, too partisan, too pert(?) etc etc etc to deflect, I'd be a happier bunny.

Please, just concentrate on your OWN content, often not reading what was being said and then choosing to distort the debate e.g. being tax free doesn't compensate, as if used as THE excuse to be there. Pathetic.

Yes here we CAN lay in gutters in our own vomit, and we don't just have the worse record in Europe for doing so, we also like to brag for days about just how shitfaced we got - that IS democracy baby.

But Saudi Arabia's and other countries democracy are interwoven with strict religious laws e.g. no alcohol, that most women within those countries will actually agree with - but we can safely assume would like to see some reforms to improve their everyday life.*

But exactly what and HOW FAR the majority of Muslim women want those reforms to go on a scale of one-to-ten (with ten being legless in a gutter) is surely NOT FOR US 'infidels' - and arguably not even for Muslims that live in the West - to decide for them.

And that point will not be lost on the steeply religious folk running those countries; as just who are we (and our rather lax morals) to tell them what to do, and not only do they not give that 'rats tail' of what we think, the Western criticism is likely to HARDEN their views, so do those within no favours.

Globally with 85-90% of all Muslims being this stricter Sunni variety (clearly not always so strictly observed) somehow reforms at all levels have to come from within itself.

No one here is saying they can't have their own laws re alchohol consumption though, are they? They seem to have concentrated more on the harsh punishments inflicted on maids, or on the death sentances given to teenagers who are guilty of no crime except freedom of speech.

Without a survey I can see the women of the UK STILL telling Cameron to make Saudi Arabian demands and chant to King Salman 'we want change, we want change, but errrr don't know exactly what THEY want changed'.

I'm sure he'd give it a crack, he currently has a similar negotiating position on our EU Membership.

RavennaWorsley ... you are right, I've gone off track, as are those now bringing in Freedom of Speech when we have a post with a specific case on a UK citizen.

Freedom of Speech can never be overrated and how often are important rights obtained without martyrs on the way - but AGAIN needs reformers and within Saudi Arabia IMO that can come one day from a reforming King who wants to take on the religious establishment.

Two great states within a state co-existing for close to a century in modern day Saudi Arabia, but go back many years before, so I can't see any alternative to being driven by royalty - and for any reformer to have a chance, he can't be seen to have been shouted into reforms, especially by the West by the religious establishment.

Anyway fingers crossed and have some faith in Cameron and the diplomats to get our man back soon, unharmed, I do.

Ha ha ha I'm so unaffected by your remarks..... look at me.. T=You all know I'm right and you hate me for it don't you..?? Hah ha ha

I noticed that the man's wife is in the UK, suffering from Alzheimers, and he wants to get home to 'be with her'.. So why was he still there?
And his family carefully worded their plea, by saying he has 'paid UK national insurance for years' Ok, no tax then.
So looks like he lived life high on the hog tax free. Paid just enough NI to ensure his wife gets free care in the UK ( Why not keep her in Saudi?
I wonder which country's health Service paid for all his cancer treatment etc?
He chose to live there for all those years, knowing it was a brutal and medieval regime. The British Gvt should not intervene, and no way should tax payers be coughing up anything on his behalf.

MrsUltra he sent her home when he was imprisoned, there was no one to look after her.

batshitlady ... you're sounding one glass away from the gutter, (in my best pious voice) 'the bottle is not your friend'.

Despite the fact that I think Saudi is a very backward place with attitudes and punishments both stuck in the dark ages, I have no real sympathy for this man. He's been living in Saudi for a long time so will be well aware of the punishment for transporting alcohol. As others have said he doesn't have to live there. Perhaps he should have chosen another tax friendly and less backward country if it was so important to him to be able to drive around with hooch in his boot.

Actually, I thought she sounded pretty much like you isitmebut!

RavennaWorslley ... 'you would though, wouldn't you', but alas nothing could be further from the truth.

There was a time long ago whether office lunch times, rather 'happy hours' (or two), and an obligatory glass with dinner, I could never have imagined NOT having at least one glass 24/7, 52 weeks of the every year for decades - but NEVER lost my footing, as would 'honk' long before then.

However in the interests of disclosure, live with an alcoholic for years and it changes your perspective (and budget), so a fairer accusation on my booze views would be closer to the possible hypocrisy of a reformed smoker. FYI.

I'm usually of the mindset that you should do your best to respect the customs of a country if you want to live there - westerners boozing it up in Dubai always make me feel pretty disgusted. But nobody on earth deserves a punishment like this.

I work in a language school and lots of the tutors have worked and lived in SA. They told me plenty of drinking among expats goes on behind closed doors. They knew they had to do it covertly but they weren't frightened. Of course that's purely anecdotal but it sounds like this guy was extremely unlucky. I have quite a few Saudi friends and you could not meet kinder people. Their relationship withtheir ccountry is strange to me. They say they love and respect the king but they all condemn the punishments of Raif Badawi, Mohammed Al Nimr and Karl Andree.

Isitmebut: "We don't just have the worse record in Europe for doing so,"

Are you doing this deliberately? It's not "worse", it's "worst".

"we also like to brag for days about just how shitfaced we got - that IS democracy baby."

Speak for yourself, mate.

Desert interesting point about needing a letter when you're travelling with your kids from the UK. I used to live in a Muslim country as I'm married to a Muslim man. I never had a problem leaving the country on my own with my kids. Now we live in the UK, I've been stopped a couple of times coming in and out of the country as I didn't change my name on marriage. Last time I was told to get a letter from my husband in future. The irony!!