Man in Saudi Arabia to face 300+ lashes for possessing alcohol

[HermioneWeasley]

Clearly this is an insane and barbaric punishment, particularly on top of 12 months in prison.

But part of me thinks that if you choose to live in such a repulsive regime and break the law, don't you have to accept it?

Should the British government intervene in another country's sanctions?

The point is, we have our alcohol laws, they have theirs, and who are better off i.e. culturally and long term health issues

but, Isitmebut I don't think anyone is questioning the rights of Saudi to have the alcohol laws that they do....it's the shockingly cruel and barbaric punishment for breaking the law that people find unacceptable

So you actually think crucifixion is hunky dory and we shouldn't protest about it? Riiight.

And I suppose the Saudi women campaigning for the rights of women to vote or drive should just put up and shut up because the laws of the land should never be questioned?

Kampeki .... The Saudi record on human rights is appalling, but we repeatedly turn a blind eye because we want to trade with them.

Outside Europe, there are not many countries globally we could trade with on SOME form of a 'Human Rights' abuse basis in our eyes, including the main B.R.I.C, Brazil, Russia, India and China nations with nearly 2.4 billion citizens between them.

I'm sure some politicians think that we can trade/barter with ourselves, maybe go back to the Groat, and still fund all our services - but that is not a reality.

Tell the UK families we don't want to export anymore so they'll be unemployed, as the likes of France takes their orders, see how that goes down.

And I suppose the Saudi women campaigning for the rights of women to vote or drive should just put up and shut up because the laws of the land should never be questioned?

No I don't, but it is their issue not ours, we had our suffrage/reforms and its still ongoing.

And protesting because they want democracy is their issue too but you honestly think it's okay that someone who does that should be crucified as a punishment?

So you actually think crucifixion is hunky dory

Don't bring the debate down to a stupid level.

and we shouldn't protest about it? Riiight.

Wrong, you can do anything you want if you have the time.

But how can I say this different to above....

THEY DON'T GIVE A RATS TAIL

Don't bring the debate down to a stupid level.

I think you already did that with your comments about all British women lying spread eagled in the street or something along those lines.

Anyway, I was going to write a more measured response but it's past midnight and I'm done arguing with goady fuckers. I'm sure someone else will pick it up in the morning.

So one more time, of course I do not agree with Saudi punishments, far from it, but I reiterate their laws go back centuries and to them those laws bind their society together - and the majority of those who fall foul of those laws KNEW what they were doing.

Protest until blue or red in the face, but for a trading nation to tell every country in the South Americas, Middle East, Asia and Far East and China we will not create jobs to trade with you and take your money as you are doing something we don't like, is just plain dumb.

I think you already did that with your comments about all British women lying spread eagled in the street or something along those lines.

Really, when we are debating extremes, alcohol, and (sitting on our high horse) their society versus ours.

If you can't see that point, you shouldn't be pretending to debate, don't let those bed bugs bite.

I don't think I've ever read such tosh as what you're spouting isitmebut. As a PP said, no one is debating their rights to laws on alcohol etc, it's the extremely brutal punishments like flogging and crucifixion.

you think rich Saudi men don't visit prodtitutes or do drugs?

You think that Saudi is morally superior because people don't get pissed? They just watch beheadings, floggings, crucifixions and amputations?

There is no equivalence between a woman drunk in the street and a state killing someone for expressing an opinion or drinking alcohol. Nine at all.

They just watch beheadings, floggings, crucifixions and amputations?

Yeah, EVERYONE in Saudi Arabia watches them - its their Thursday night version of X-Factor, to find the nastiest bastard there - and you accuse me of mass generalisations? lol

Re what Muslim men do, having been on business in the Gulf (many moons ago) and also visited their family homes, seen the queues outside the Bahrain courts after every weekend and while representing my company, had guests visit the UK and heard what they got up to - so I am more aware than most of the sheer hypocrisy of a society with such double standards - but again that is generalising, many live within the strict laws.

The punishments are not new, and like most countries with 'substance' laws, they are specifically design as a deterrent and WORSE for those they see as 'suppliers' - whether drugs or bottles of wine.

And how many currently taking the high risk on moving alcohol around, might think twice due to this case, saving the Saudi courts time and less traffic on social media.

I repeat my end point on my first post, I doubt it very much if the lashes will go ahead, they want to DEPORT him, thus satisfying those within the Kingdom demanding a severe punishment to ensure he does not offend again - and western sensibilities of their customs, laws and punishments.

I can't believe you are defending it.

Slavery, rape and female genital mutilation are legal in a number of countries. I'm not sure that legislation has ever been a guide of 'ethical behaviour'. Yes the Saudis can pass whatever legislation and deliver whatever punishments they wish - that is their right.

However it doesn't mean that we should sanction it.

All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.

I think Isitmebut aims to? explain rather than exonerate

How did you feel about apartheid isitmebut? Did you go around superciliously telling people that their opinions were worth nothing and that no amount of protest would change the SA government's mind because "their country, their rules"? Funny how years of protest and economic sanctions actually did work there in the end.

The UN General Assembly elects the members who occupy the UNHRC's 47 seats. The General Assembly takes into account the candidate States’ contribution to the promotion and protection of human rights, as well as their voluntary pledges and commitments in this regard. The term of each seat is three years, and no member may occupy a seat for more than two consecutive terms.

Farahilda, the UNHRC's remit is wider than refugees. The above is from Wikipedia and quite clearly shows that the Saudi's are offering nothing in terms of the contribution expected of them. It is up to members of the UN General Assembly to ensure that this is enforced. It won't be. Did you watch the interview with Jon Snow that I linked to? It is excrutiating. He could not answer the question because he can't answer anything that a spin doctor has not prepared for him. In my opinion when the Leader of the Opposition is asking our Priminister to look into these matters he should be able to provide answers to the people who have voted him in.

Saudi jails are medieval. There is little rhyme or reason and the court process is grindingly slow and arbitrary and information is scarce.

Most embassy staff prefer to stay away.

People know the law on alcohol and many expats choose to flout it.

Most expats make alcohol, and you'd be surprised how many blind eyes are turned and how many non-UK people buy it.

The embassies can bring in whisky.

Frankly, the hysteria about grown men boozing or not boozing is a massive red herring.

Why aren't we making the same fuss about the girls and women there who are forbidden from living? Who literally cannot leave their houses without a male chaperone, of 12 or older.

Whose births and deaths are unrecorded as they are literally 'chattel.'

Who cannot drive or do anything without permission from a male relative?

An old expat hand, who's known the score for 25 years got busted. He had the choice. He made the wrong one.

These women, our sisters, have no rights to ANY kind if independent life. They have no choice.

Where are the petitions and contract-cancelling on their behalf, please?

suzannecaravaggio .. re I think Isitmebut aims to? explain rather than exonerate

Thank you, if there is still any doubt, you are 100% correct, and so this will be my last post on here, possibly until further news.

CallaLilli .... re How did you feel about apartheid isitmebut? Did you go around superciliously telling people that their opinions were worth nothing and that no amount of protest would change the SA government's mind because "their country, their rules"? Funny how years of protest and economic sanctions actually did work there in the end.

A very good point about what sanctions/protesting can do, but with one serious flaw versus this Saudi Arabian example;

• In South Africa it was the whites of European descent suppressing the indigenous population with their laws of division.

• In Saudi Arabia it is the European’s etc telling the indigenous population what their laws SHOULD be, as ours are different.

Thank god that being Christian and white is always right. Hmmm.

But there are plenty among the indigenous population who are against the laws of their country - the young man about to be crucified for example. Should the international community just stand by and let it happen, rather than offer him support?

And btw I'm neither white nor Christian but I am able to see the difference between humane and inhumane treatment of a population.

Good point Olivepip59, sadly I think the answer to your question is "oil".

OK, I'm going to bite.
Disclaimer. I'm currently living in Saudi, as a Western lady.

Yes, the punishments can be harsh.
However I have more sympathy with Raif Badawi and Ali Mohammed al-Nimr, as they have fallen foul of ambiguous laws on free speach.

The stance on alcohol here is clear. There is corporal punishment for importing or being caught with alcohol. Yes, home brew is rife in compound living, but you'd have to be pretty mad to try and take it to a different compound, given the fact you are likely to be searched driving out then back in again. The stance on drugs is also clear, capital punishment is possible. Like the Americans also have capital punishment???!!!

Women can easily go out on their own, or in a group with other women. The shopping Malls are full of abaya'ed women. The western ones with hair uncovered, the locals with a head scarf, and often a veil. But without having to be chaperoned. Whilst it is not 50:50, women can and do have jobs (I've seen cashiers and HR personal who are local). They can also go to school - tho it will be a girls only school during primary and secondary. My sons preschool is mixed.

I cannot drive, correct. But there are 1001 taxis, if you are fortunate enough to have the money.

Yes, I need my husbands permission to travel. But what about me wanting to leave the UK with the kids to go on holiday. Is it not recommended I carry a letter from their father???

While life is very, very different here to the UK, like anywhere it has pros and considered. You respect the people who have taken you into their country, and there is a great life, with good £ at the end of it due to the tax position over here. So what if wages are low. It's all yours to keep, and food is cheep, as is electricity (for aircon) and petrol.

DesertOrDessert .... the INFORMED voice of reason, thank you.

I'm off here now but for for the record;

• I am white and (weddings and funerals) C of E Christian.

• Definitely dessert, nowadays.

DesertOrDessert .... the INFORMED voice of reason, thank you.

Just because I am not an expat does not mean that my opinion is not informed. This is not about living out there, it is about inconceivable human rights abuses that are considered acceptable just because we as a UN member state choose to accept that this is ok. I don't see how in any way this is justified. I have linked to a Guardian article that shows how our government has conducted deals to ensure the Saudis were elected to the UN Human Rights Council.

Read this to be informed about how our government is complicit in this

So basically the human rights abuses, oppression of women, and disproportionate punishments are ok because there is good £ due to the tax situation.

I guess everyone's ethical Stance is different.