Mass shooting in my state

[Terramirabilis]

Another mass shooting in the US and this one is close to home. Local media are saying 13 students dead and 20+ injured. When are people going to see sense on gun control. I just don't understand this.

twitter.com/hashtag/UCCShooting?src=hash

Why is it a ridiculous statement Rick?

Here's the facts and figures. I'm not making it up, read the article I linked to above.

UK murder incidences: 642

642 / 561 = 1.14

US murder incidences: 14,612

14,612 / 3116 = 4.6

You are thus 4.03x (4.6 / 1.14) more likely to be murdered in the US than in the UK.

I find it most odd that you are trying to make out we are more unsafe over here than in the US. And btw I don't live in 'rural Gloucestershire'. Nor should you be discounting blacks as you put it to fudge the figures.

Roussette
dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/
is your link (corrected)

Thanks PigletJohn! It needed that!

This is down to the availability of guns. That 11 year old boy would not have killed the little girl next door without one.

559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured by guns in the US so far this year, that's a shocking figure.

So is this. Shooting of 6yr old Kayla Rolland by classmate He had found and taken his uncle's gun.

I'm actually against gun control. Gun crimes believe it or not are actually worse in areas of the US where they have strict gun control, and is less frequent in areas that have more relaxed laws around what you can own and carry for protection. This shooting itself happened in a gun free zone but the type of person who goes around massacring people doesn't care whether it's illegal or not.

Kampeki you said that you found it incomprehensible that Americans allow this to continue. No one allows it to happen, it is a crime and those who do it are punished if and when they are caught. Short of banning everyone from having the ability to protect themselves which would be 1. unconstitutional/illegal and 2. wouldn't work as there are too many guns out there and the ability to make more easily with 3d printers that it's like a proverbial genie being out of the bottle. The British didn't allow the Raoul Moat shootings thing to happen, he just did it. It's such a sad waste of life and a tragedy and my thoughts go out to the victims and their friends and family and really we sometimes only think of the victims and we don't always realize that for every 1 dead person, there are maybe dozens of people who will have to live with the devastation of losing a loved one. It's very depressing.

It depends what you think "allow this to happen" means.

If you interpret "this" to mean "have an environment in which weapons and ammunition, including automatic weapons which are obviously not for sporting or self-defence, are so readily available that any criminal or homicidal manial can obtain them, and where numerous children can gain access and wilfully or uncomprehendingly shoot themselves or others"

Then, yes, American voters DO allow this to happen.

You could just as easily say that British voters allowed Raoul Moat to happen by not allowing people to have weapons to protect themselves from him. The problem as I see it is that there isn't a way to deprive the would-be homicidal nutters from guns without also depriving the law abiding from having them, and it is pointless to implement something which may save one life at the expense of another for instance we prevent a shooting spree but cause several other people to die because they weren't able to protect themselves.

Switzerland have a very high rate of gun ownership (3rd in the world) yet they don't have the tragedies that happen in the US.

world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/ this]] is a very interesting article and it seems to me that there is a change of mindset needed in the US if guns will forever be a way of life.

No, I would not say that making guns freely available reduces the number of people shot.

Do you seriously think it does?

In general, I'm a libertarian. However, I make an exception for guns, due to the disproportionate harm they can do.

Sports shooting can be permitted, as the guns should never leave the range.

I can think of no legitimate reason why a householder in the UK needs a gun. (Current levels of gun crime in the UK are low enough to counter the "for self defence" argument).

And if you really, really, really feel you have to have a gun, shotgun licenses are still issued by default, rather than exception.

LurkingHusband current levels of gun crime are low but other crimes still exist, the type of crime where it would be handy for you to have a weapon even if the culprit does not. As the saying goes better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

"current levels of gun crime are low"

Don't understand that. Which country are you talking about?

I'm agreeing with LurkingHusband that current levels of gun crime in the UK are pretty low, compared to the US.

which are the types of crime where you think it would be handy to kill an unarmed suspect?

Ask a shooting victim if they'd rather been attacked with a knife or a gun.

Knifes don't have horrific exit wounds, you can run away from them, and they can't kill multiple victims from a distance.

I think they are both equally unappealing Greenwood. Piglet I'm not sure exactly when it would be handy to kill an unarmed suspect, but I wasn't really referring to killing them, just pointing out that if you are armed and the culprit isn't, it puts you in a much better position to control the situation. Purely anecdotal of course and not sure how common it is in the grand scheme but a friend of an American friend has survived a mugging attempt by getting his weapon out and ordering the would-be criminal to leave, no injuries to either party, no grappling about on the floor over a wallet, no lost possessions. He correctly pointed out that if he didn't have that weapon, he could have handed over his wallet and phone and then the mugger may have just beaten the crap out of him for good measure, he may have needed hospital treatment or worse. And of course the reverse applies, he could have handed his stuff over and not been injured but he would rather not take the risk, which is why he carries. I used to be against them but in recent times I've begun to come round to the idea that law abiding people should be allowed to own them. That mainly came from listening to the thoughts of gun owning Americans and realizing that they aren't all crazy nuts, and a lot of them talked about things I could relate to even living in a country where we don't have a lot of gun crime. There's been times in my life where a situation has made me feel quite scared and uncomfortable, I'd have felt better if I had a weapon as I know it would give me a better chance in those situations.

No, they're not equally unappealing. If someone holds a gun to you, you can be killed from a distance, and everyone around you (within sight) can be killed too. Knives, although still something to be feared, obviously, do not inflict the horrific exit wounds that bullets do.

People living a normal life in the UK (ie non-criminal) do not fear guns are an everyday part of life. If we suffer a burglary, we do not assume they will have a gun. I like it that way.

The only purpose in having a gun is to kill someone. It is not for waving about. If you are not ready willing and able to do that, your street robber is quite likely to take it off you. Now you are facing an armed robber. If he was already armed and he felt under threat when you started waving your penis substitute big boy's toy, he would likely shoot you.

As for law abiding people owning guns, you mean increasing the number of guns in circulation, and you mean increasing the number of children who find them and wilfuly, stupidly or accidentally shoot themselves or someone else. That is certainly not to be welcomed.

Piglet I'm afraid that I have to disagree with you at least partly. While I agree that you must be able and willing to kill the person if it comes to that, you certainly aren't locked into that course of action when you pull a gun on them. With that American I told you about, simply getting his gun out was enough for the would-be thief to see sense and he left very quickly. He got the weapon out and was willing to kill the thief to protect his life and his property if needed, but simply producing the weapon had caused the thief to see sense and give up, so killing him at that point would simply be murder. No one wants children to suffer a tragic accident at the hands of a gun, I don't welcome that any more than you.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/oregon-shooting-hero-blasted-five-6559234

The very worst of humanity sometimes also brings out the very best, this man an army veteran apparently charged at the gunman while everyone else was running away and is now recovering in hospital.

They are also saying the shooter posted on 4chan that he was going to carry out the attack warning "Some of you guys are alright. Don't go to school tomorrow if you're in the northwest" but it can't be verified as him.

Is that supposed to make the high prevalence of gun crime in the US ok or something?

"If you are not ready willing and able to do that, your street robber is quite likely to take it off you. Now you are facing an armed robber. If he was already armed and he felt under threat when you started waving your penis substitute big boy's toy, he would likely shoot you."

This.

If I were to be mugged I can cancel my cards and buy a new handbag and it's an unpleasant experience. But unusual. DontHave - if your American friend of a friend thought pulling a gun to protect his wallet was a good idea then he really needs to look up "escalation".

"All kids get trained on what to do in event of a shooting from kindergarten up." How can Americans (and yes I know not all) not see that this is completely ridiculous?! It shouldn't be necessary!

While I agree with Squidz that owners should be held responsible I just think that what actually needs to happen is major education that guns are NOT a NEED!

'Isn't it too late?' Firstly a defeatist attitude is always poor, secondly it's never too late for future generations.

'Stop making ammunition for them ?' Yep and heavily control the manufacture and sale of guns with massive penalties for flouting the rules!

"What happens over there with guns makes me not want to travel to the country, how sad is that? Not because I would be scared but because I feel so strongly about the carnage that guns create and the normalisation of it, I just don't want to." Me too except I would be scared. And I do think that while Americans may not necessarily be more violent as a whole they seem to have less regard for life.

"the cognitive dissonance between "nothing wrong with our children" and there being 45 school shootings this year." This is exactly what I mean! Eg they're more likely to have issues and protests over a film depicting sex than the many depicting graphic violence!

Yes I'm also disgusted by the blame being put on mental illness. Being angry, racist, sexist, anti semitic is NOT the same as being ill.

"It depends what you think "allow this to happen" means."
"Then, yes, American voters DO allow this to happen." Exactly! It's cultural.

As for the constitution? Bull! Gets changed whenever necessary and if THIS isn't a bloody good reason for change then the USA as a whole has a screw loose! If the whole country were a gun free zone there'd be a massive reduction in incidents!

I've yet to hear a sensible argument for why law abiding citizens NEED a gun! I don't! None of my friends in UK, Europe, Africa, Asia or Australia do!

"It puts you in a much better position to control the situation" no it doesn't! Homes where a gun lives are more likely to result in that gun being used against the innocent!

"If we suffer a burglary, we do not assume they will have a gun. I like it that way." And we're a damn site safer too!

Don'thave you're buying into the arguments of the NRA and gun manufacturers. The statistical evidence proves your dodgy anecdotal evidence wrong.

Here's one man's take on it, for those who haven't caught it already:
zap2it.com/2015/10/jim-jefferies-gun-control-stand-up-video-viral-oregon-shooting/