The situation with migrants and illegal immigration

[Gingermakesmesick]

What is the answer?

I would hate to be in the position of making the decision because I hate to think of how desperate the individuals concerned must be.

But I can also quite see that there simply isn't the physical room to allow all of them into the UK, or the resources.

What is the answer? Is there no answer?

Ubik1 As I said... you don't leave until the country is functioning again. You help build it up. It wi cost money.

Germany rose out of the ashes of a lost war, and now, it's the most powerful economy in Europe. It was provided with brilliant support... and I guess they benefited from a well-educated, knowledgeable and very diligent population. I don't know how much education people get in Syria... but I guess even now, it's not at the same level as Germany was all those years ago.

Hmmm - let's see how Iraq is doing...oh... Well let's look at Afghanistan...um

Aylan Kurdi's family fled Assad twice:
The ultimate injustice one can commit to Aylan Kurdi and his family is to omit the parts of his story which explain why he ended up dead on the beach. The details matter, so please read and share:

1. Abdullah Kurdi, the father, was detained for 5 months in Air Force Intelligence in Damascus. While in detention, he was tortured and his teeth were pulled out. He had to sell his shop in Damascus in order to bribe the officers to let him out. This cost him 5,000,000 Syrian Liras (around $25,000)

2. After he bribed his way out of jail, Abdullah fled to Aleppo with his wife and sons, Aylan and Ghalib. The situation in Aleppo became dangerous due to the constant aerial bombardment, so he fled again to Kobani, his hometown.

3. When ISIS attacked Kobani last year, the family could no longer live in their hometown, so they fled to Turkey. Once in Turkey, the Turkish government did not provide them with assistance, so they paid almost $6,000 to secure 4 spots on a rubber dingy to the Greek island of Kos.

4. While on the boat, rough waters caused the boat to flip. The lifejackets they were given were fake. His sons and wife all drowned in front of his eyes, in his arms.

5. Abdullah Kurdi alleges he applied in June for refuge to Canada, but was rejected. After Aylan's photo became a media story, he was reportedly offered citizenship to Canada. But he doesn't want to go to Canada or Europe anymore. He says he will go bury his family in Kobani and stay there to fight against ISIS, because everything has been taken away from him and he has "nothing to live for."

Pontipines

Btw, Air Force Intelligence are one of the most feared branches of the Mukhabarat. Pulling teeth is quite mild by their standards. Hence why the family put themselves into near destitution to get him out and then fled asap afterwards.

Ubik1 Of course, you choose to use those examples. But as I said, they didn't really provide proper support for Iraq and Afghanistan. Completely different to what happened after WW2 with Germany. It might also have to do with culture. Germany obviously belongs to the West, so the fact that the culture is so different might play a big part.

Claig - I think if a deal is done with Assad and if there is a commitment to finish Isis then the ex-Saddam generals who are part of Isis's military, the Chechens who are working with Isis will all pack up and leave. I think Isis will disappear quite quickly if the Iranians and the Iraqis and Assad are given the green light to finish them off. Once their funding and backing is ended, then I think they will disappear.

You may have seen this but if not, look at "In a nutshell..." on YouTube. Look at the Iraq and Syria war one. ISIS are the richest terrorist organisation in the world. The don't need paying. The real danger is that they will get too big for anyone to handle (which feeds into my point about fighting and resistance - who is going to do that?).

Pontipine thank you.

I am a migrant. I bought a plane ticket, a one way ticket to Manchester. It was a whim beacuse I wanted to see more of the world. It was not a choice between being persecuted, imprisoned, tortured and fleeing. It was simply a decision about how easy it was to get to the ski resorts of Europe. When it becomes a choice between certain death and near certain death you are no longer a migrant you are a refugee. It saddens me that this country which welcomed me is now saying to people in dire need that they cannot come here.

There are arguements that say that:
they will clog up the NHS - it has been noted many times that the NHS has recruitment drives for non EU nationals to prop up their staffing requirements.
Take up all the housing - ban second home ownership unless the property is a rental and the landlord is registered (to avoid over priced slums paid for by Housing Benefit). Also house prices are less to do with the total number of houses avaliable, but the amount people can borrow to pay for their "dream" house. The current high house prices can be traced back to the daft prices we paid for them pre 2007 because we could borrow stupid income multipliers. Also my family would still need a house because they would not be welcome in my home country.
They take our Jobs - I could go home but that would mean 19 people would become unemployed.
They claim benefit - my Dh suffers from depression which makes it very difficult for him to work. I support him. If I went home he would be claiming benefit.

I am not unusual for a migrant. Leaving a home is not an easy choice - these people are highly motivated. Would you get up and move halfway across a continent without knowing the language, not knowing if you would get to your destination?

In relation to my last point, of course ordinary people can't stand up to ISIS (the story about Aylan Kurdi's family is just so sad) but I don't think I realised just quite how wealthy ISIS are. Someone mentioned upthread that getting to them technologically and via freezing their assets may be a way. Yes - if possible. They will have enormous control over these things, though. The only god point is that if they get so big as to become self-controlling (are they at that stage already?) everyone will want to see them wiped out, which will mean a co-ordinated international response. But what do we do now? Just wait?