The situation with migrants and illegal immigration

[Gingermakesmesick]

What is the answer?

I would hate to be in the position of making the decision because I hate to think of how desperate the individuals concerned must be.

But I can also quite see that there simply isn't the physical room to allow all of them into the UK, or the resources.

What is the answer? Is there no answer?

juneau

You're right. I've followed Merkel for quite some time. I mean - hey - she's a woman, and leads the most powerful country in Europe. Who wouldn't be intrigued? She's a scientist. And it shows. She's completely ruled by her mind, not heart. When things happen, she holds back, evaluates the situation, and then, the announcements follow.

Ginger
Yes, the Channel is a great moat. But seriously, I do hope people would actually choose to fight and not flee.

As a woman, I might be a bit biased here, but one of the biggest problems the Middle East (and other countries) have is the inequality of women. Seriously, if you look at ALL the countries which have issues with corruption, wars, etc. - you will notice there's a pretty darn big correlation with them also being exclusively male-dominated countries.

I've been to quite a few of these countries, and mothers tend to bring up their sons like they could do no wrong, while being incredibly strict to their daughters. Many of the sons grow up to be spoiled men who think they're infallible (and very often can't take criticism - especially from women).

Would you let men like that rule any country? I wouldn't. But in those countries, they do. Even worse, the turd always floats to the top.

Educating women really is key: greater decision making power over personal (reproduction, violence) and political aspects (less aggression, fewer wars), financial contribution -the benefits are enormous.

It's important to note that everything being discussed here has been hard fought for in the West -Enlightenment, feminism, increasing equality, peace, pluralism and liberalism. None of this was easy to come by and came at a huge cost. These struggles are still with us although obviously not to such an extent.

Totally agree that we are seeing unprecedented levels of migration. Our forebears perhaps accepted more easily that several generations would suffer in order to establish, for example, voting rights for women, democracy, etc.. Are these migration patterns an indication of dependence on the West and the expectation of western solution-focused, problem solving skills? I don't envy any politicians right now. What a mess.

fourmummy:
"Agree with snowbells - this is what I meant whenever I see the huge wall of people in the media. Together, organised in some sort of way, they would provide a formidable force against ISIS (but it's not only IS which is the the problem."
This is just grotesquely and horrifically wrong: being a large group offers precisely zero protection against barrel bombs, mustard gas and heavy weapons. The fleeing populace is unarmed. Assad and ISIS have armies. You know, actual friggin armies with tanks and helicopters and fighter jets and lots of high explosive. The odd pistol or a hunting rifle is fuck all help against that.

I guess another reason it's reaching critical mass now is also the people smugglers have got organised, have got systems in place etc etc.

saying families should stay is ...very harsh and I strongly disagree.

I think we need a world wide response - can't see it happening but it would be great if merkel could wangle it so when the Syrians arrive in turkey they then go to safe places all over world inc Saudi, uk, use etc.

I didn't mean necessarily going in unarmed. I realise the weaponry involved. However, large groups of people are able to organise themselves using their skills. Some can be diplomats, others can use technology to undermine or create operations, some can be spies, still others can use physical force. I once read that humanity's biggest resource is people. We are creative and enterprising. We can destroy...but also save and create. How have other countries done it? For centuries, large swathes of various populations have had to face superior aggressors. The wider point here is that taking a 'quota' of migrants now is no solution at all. Its only function is to make people salve their trauma at the horrifying press pictures. I can't even begin to imagine who and what has been left behind in those hellholes.

I agree that staying and facing certain death is improbable. Longterm, if people want change, they will need to fight for it. But what can possibly be done now, immediately? If everyone who can make it leaves, then how do we organise ourselves to assimilate it all? What about the ones left behind?

Is there a way that Anne Frank and her family could have combined forces with the other Jewish families and fought the Nazis?

Actually, no.

I don't think you understand how wars are won and who fights them. From what I understand, winning a war is an incredible complex process requiring psychological confidence, money, tactical advantages and luck. Money on its own isn't enough - the armies trained up using American money have been no match for ISIS because they have a deep-rooted fear of who they're up against. Yet in many ways, the countries under threat are fighting their hearts out. It's not working. They're fleeing because they're losing, not losing because they've fled.

If ISIS came here today, driving our women into the marketplace, throwing our children alive into mass graves and beheading our husbands, with the army obviously defeated or else nowhere in sight, can you honestly tell me that you would choose to stay and fight them?! Or would you, viewing the atrocity, take the offer of a boat out with people who swear they've done the crossing twenty times and come to no harm?

And if, arriving safely at a foreign shore, you were told to return and take your chances with the rest of your massacred family, would you accept that citizens of that country were perfectly reasonable and within their rights?

Or would you feel they had blood on their hands.

I really find it difficult to brlieve that ordinary civilians with kids here are seriously ordaining that ordinary civilians with kids there should turn and fight back. Would they even know how to start doing that themselves? Any of you even been in a street fight, let alone a war?

Also the Syrians were on the midst of a bloody civil war against Assad when ISIS attacked. Civilians are caught right between Russian tanks, UK drones and ISIS barbarism

Indeed. But there were many Jewish resistance fighters too as there are in many wars. I realise what winning or losing a war entails. DH and I have often discussed this scenario. I'd likely go with the kids -but DH would stay. He feels quite strongly about that. All hypothetical, of course, and no idea how things would work out in reality.

There are young Kurdish women fighting Isis on the frontline in Syria alongside the men. Sixteen year olds

Can I ask - who should the Syrian refugees fight for? Assad?

Kurdish women fighters:

"She says that several Kurdish soldiers have been killed and wounded, though she does not know the details. She adds that the YPJ Kurdish women’s militia, to which she belongs, is gradually driving Isis towards the west. She and the other women appear remote and detached from what they are saying, possibly because they are exhausted from days on the front line."

This is the first time I have ever wanted to consciously Godwin a thread, but...

Can you imagine being the one to say, when people were arranging the Kindertransport after kristalnacht, while Jewish people could still leave the country, "sorry, we're full"?

On the whole, ordinary people in Britain had a great deal less than they do now, and yet with the Kindertransport, we still managed to take in 10,000 unaccompanied Jewish children from across Europe. Often, these children were the only ones from their families to survive the war.

That little lad who drowned - his family had already moved three times to escape the war. They had tried to apply for asylum in Canada. This was a last resort.

Ah - hadn't got to the end of the thread. I see I am in good company, thank goodness.

It's the same with economic migrants. Who the fuck are we to criticise economic migrants?

No-one should criticise economic migrants -whether you are fleeing the ravages of war or poverty is irrelevant. And we cannot turn away those who've made it. Fishing bodies out of the sea is horrifying. But what's the long-term solution - the ones left behind ( i feel VERY uncomfortable about this), the scumbags profiteering from this? Where will the resistance to the ideologies, politics, economics left behind come from? Who will rebuild - will another Western nation state slot itself in? Personally, my family and I will help all we can - but I'm still disturbed by the unanswered questions above. I would hope that someone would take me and my children in - but many (male) members of my extended family would remain.

Who pays for the tens of thousands we are supposed take? A never ending money pot given to local authorities I suppose. Perhaps cooper and her overbearing hubby can put up a family or two in their leafy suburb abode

Let them in and let them WORK

then they pay for themselves : which is what they want to do

fourmummy, these are ordinary people who can't fight the likes of Isis or protect themselves from the bombs of the Syrian regime. Isis have been funded and armed to the teeth. Lots of them are foreigners who have been funded. Ordinary people haven't got the weapons or ability to stop Isis.

'But what's the long-term solution'

It is very simple. The West have to stop Isis backers and funders, bomb their training camps and bomb their oil (as Donald Trump said they should do) and then the West has to come to a deal with Assad which will end the war and rebuild and refinance the country so that the Syrian people can return to their country. But it won't happen because politics is involved. However, since European governments are now facing the worst refugee crisis since WWII, then they may now have to come to a deal with Assad and bring an end to the war which would solve the problem.

Chipstick would you, honestly, have asked that question when the 10,000 Jewish children arrived on the kindertransport just before WW2?

(And anyway, it's a nonsense question. Practically every study of immigration has concluded that immigrants bring more wealth to the country than they cost, when they are allowed to work.)

We are used to having our questions answered.

But there isn't a nice answer to the problems in Syria. We need to address the here and now and that means doing our bit in the small way the UK can.

We always think we are at the centre of things - but we aren't. We are a small island that can shelter some folk.

There are far bigger and richer powers involved in this conflict Saudi and Iran.

'There are far bigger and richer powers involved in this conflict Saudi and Iran.'

I think the Saudis do as they are told and Iran would want a peace deal. It is up to the West whether they want to make a deal with Assad. Obama's deal with Iran may be the beginning of a change of policy.

"Syria sees West easing tough stance after Iran deal: Assad aide

A close adviser to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad said Iran's nuclear accord with world powers will force the West to soften its stance against Damascus and deal with its government to find a negotiated solution to Syria's civil war."

www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-mideast-crisis-syria-adviser-idUSKCN0PX25P20150723

The sooner the policy changes, the sooner a deal can be done, the sooner Syria can be rebuilt amd the sooner the refugees can return home. The politicians may now be forced to do a deal as the public pressure mounts over their inability to solve the refugee crisis.

I come from a long line of immigrants in the Hapsburg Monarchy, and married a man whose nationality was different from mine.

Ubik1 Yeah, I would like to know the answer to that question. Is Assad our best friend now?

fourmummy I admire your optimism to think that you would have time to plan and slip away.

And yes, I would fight for my home till the bitter end, but when the invaders came, I would hide. And for good reason.

'But there isn't a nice answer to the problems in Syria'

To find the answer you need to find the cause. What caused the civil war? Who funded and backed and trained the rebels so that they could pursue a war against the Syrian army for over four years? Where did the money and weapons come from? Who supplied them?

If the policy changes, then a deal can be done to rebuild the country, end the war and let people return home.