The situation with migrants and illegal immigration

[Gingermakesmesick]

What is the answer?

I would hate to be in the position of making the decision because I hate to think of how desperate the individuals concerned must be.

But I can also quite see that there simply isn't the physical room to allow all of them into the UK, or the resources.

What is the answer? Is there no answer?

I think the crisis in the EU over the refugees may force EU politicians to come up with a deal that ends the war, finally after 5 years. Assad may have to step down and Iran and Russia may go along with that.

Western powers knew this nearly 2 years ago

"Western nations admit they CANNOT remove Assad from power in Syria... as it would lead to 'chaos and a takeover by Islamist militants'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525704/Western-nations-admit-CANNOT-remove-Assad-power-Syria-lead-chaos-takeover-Islamist-militants.html

So isn't it time to end the war, do a deal with Assad and let people return home?

Claig - yes, any military conformation with Assad will possibly involve Russia and Iran, so a diplomatic way is the only one really. It seems undoubtedly the case that the refugee crisis will force the EU to act. Russia seems happy to go along with a possible regime change.

On a slightly different note, I'm really not sure how much more brutality I can take knowing about in the world. How do others cope with the continual current and historical awareness of conflict. My resilience is seriously low to the point of compromised functioning.

The photo of that little boy The refugees need our help.

SnowBells something in your post reminded me of a programme i watched the other night. The Lorry Jumpers on Channel 4. One of the men trying to reach Britain said his dream was to get together with a British woman and get her pregnant. I did at that because i know that like you said in your post the men in a lot of these places are brought up to see themselves as superior to women. It did make my feminist hackles rise a bit. However there are many men in the UK who see themselves as superior to women too.

Oakmaiden- thanks! Back atchya
This is a great discussion and some good points made on both sides- it is by no means a simple solution! But, but...
Its so perverse that we're commenting on what 'they' should do. 'Stay and fight' 'rebuild' etc etc. while posting on mumsnet on our laptops/ipads while our children sleep safely in their beds. We do not fear tomorrow. We have no idea of the desperation and terrifying reality they face. Reading about it and seeing pictures cannot possibly convey the horror they experience.
Now is not the time for intellectual discussions or amatuer stategic solutions is it? Yes they should rebuild and fight but lets give them some respite, a safe place to rebuild themselves and their families and the right support to decide on the future of their country and how they can realistically do that. Its what i would want/need.
Cut off ISIS at the knees financially and technologically. Reduce their power in other ways and make them impotent. Perhaps the time has come to sacrifice our comfortable lifestyles (in comparison) to help rebuild a country we have had a hand in destroying instead of pontificating on what 'they' should do. After all, long term it is surely in our interests (and i mean western civillsation, not just the UK) to have a stable, 'friendly' middle east with a common goal. If european countries can manage to work together in a civilised manner it is possible to extend that hand of friendship further across the world. It idealistic i know, but a better solution that indiscriminately bombing the shit out of them.
Too much of this is down to politics, saving face and fiddling the books. Id guess we dont really know whats at stake here but i dont believe what we're being told.

Snowbell All good points re cutting funding and communication lines.

fourmummy If some of the reports to be believed Russian soldiers and Iran are already involved, although not openly. As you said they need to be at the negotiations.
at our DHs

Marigold you are absolutely right. I thought last night , as I went to bed, how crass it seemed to be discussing military tactics in the face of the current events, which can only really be borne out of a position of privilege. We are also, as always, being manipulated. If we, as a family, were to make the decision to go, then that would require an organised international response, to help. However, as we can see, no political solution is forthcoming. The media are playing along or are being played showing the images that they do (where are the images of the dead kids, which they helped bomb?), so that Cameron can look good on the international stage when he turns around and says that he'll accept refugees after all. They have no idea what to do with the mess that they had a hand in creating. As ever, it's entirely political, but the suffering is all for the statistics, the masses, who don't matter a jot. Disgusting.

ginger I like to think that I/DH (bless him) would absolutely fight for democracy, liberalism, freedom of speech...but would I do this if I were really fighting for some grubby politician looking to secure his own future in the lap of luxury? The right response, over and over again, is to deal with this, but then this has been a thorn in the side of ordinary people's lives ever since...

I really feel that saying these traumatised refugees should 'stay and fight' is akin to Marie Antoinette saying 'let them eat cake'. It makes me think that the people typing the words, on their laptop, not hungry, not in poverty, have no idea how desperate life can become. A man without a gun, facing the awful strength of ISIS and with his family to protect, is as useless as a child.

Ok, feather, but who then resists? Do we leave it to the politicians to fight it out and divide the spoils? For each refugee (economic, war torn), for each heartbreaking media image, multiply that by, literally, millions. We all (well, not exactly all - I am talking about the people who matter, the ordinary citizens) want to see a peaceful, fulfilling life where you don't outlive your children. Do we just let the politicos shuffle us around? Look at our history - resistance is key, in whichever form it comes.

Ok, feather, but who then resists? Do we leave it to the politicians to fight it out and divide the spoils? For each refugee (economic, war torn), for each heartbreaking media image, multiply that by, literally, millions. We all (well, not exactly all - I am talking about the people who matter, the ordinary citizens) want to see a peaceful, fulfilling life for everyone, where you don't outlive your children. Do we just let the politicos shuffle us around? Look at our history - resistance is key, in whichever form it comes. I don't know why anyone is suggesting that some people are saying 'don't help'. Clearly, children and most women (some women stay and fight) need help, families need help, and anyone managing to make it here, whether economic/war refugee obviously need to be helped...because they represent but a fraction of what's left behind. Helping a few thousand is easy (ish) - we have the ability, resources, will. But that is not the discussion, as far as I can tell. I am on my knees though with the manipulative imagery from the media, leading to knee-jerk responses without any long-term plan in place. We have a moral obligation to help but we equally have a moral obligation for the long-term too because this will happen again and again and again, and I for one don't know how much more daily newsreading I can take (not to mention the total disgust I feel at the political machinations). .

UK has been sending troops to train but I think they are planning to be in neighboring countries so I dont know how the people would be supposed to know where to go.

Part of me thinks the resist window probably has closed, hindsight is always 20/20 but there should have been some sort of peace keeping to cut the country in half between ISIS and Damascus. Asylum seeking centres set up at each of the neighboring countries as well as a Syrian Free Army training centre.

But surely world governments must have had sight of syria on the edge of collapse??

You're right. I've followed Merkel for quite some time. I mean - hey - she's a woman, and leads the most powerful country in Europe. Who wouldn't be intrigued? She's a scientist. And it shows. She's completely ruled by her mind, not heart. When things happen, she holds back, evaluates the situation, and then, the announcements follow.

I know snowbells, she's fascinating, isn't she? In Germany the people call her 'Mutti' (mother). Can you imagine anyone here calling David Cameron 'Dad' (apart from his own kids)? She is this force who rules Europe and everyone kowtows to her AND SHE'S A WOMAN! And she is completely rational and 100% focused on what is right for Germany. She's not being a humanitarian (except by extension). She is doing what is right for Germany and anyone who doesn't get that is entirely missing the point. And how lovely for her that in doing the right thing for Germany she's also able to take the high moral ground with the rest of Europe and make every other country that isn't so 'generous' look cruel and heartless. She's a genius - she really is.

Ok fourmummy

Here is a hungry family in a refugee camp in Syria. They are physically weakened by malnutrition and poor sanitation. Mentally, they are traumatised and in deep shock. They are an ordinary family. They don't have access to weapons. The mother is focused on the overwhelming problems of caring for her children in these circumstances. For the father, a civilian with skills in civilian life, who has never aspired to be a soldier, it takes superhuman effort to steel himself and think of a way to get his children out of immediate danger. He is haunted by the very real possibility that his wife and children could meet a fate far worse than death if he fails in getting them out of the country. This drives him on. His efforts so far have been focused on obtaining food, medicines and trying to get exit papers. It is a full-time job, especially for someone who is weak with hunger. The 'enemy' is a mob of well-armed, organised killers with supplies, training, legendarily brutal methods.

What would you like this man to do? In real life, rather than as a hero a moving film about resistance martyrs?

Claig - I think the crisis in the EU over the refugees may force EU politicians to come up with a deal that ends the war, finally after 5 years. Assad may have to step down and Iran and Russia may go along with that.

Where does that leave ISIS?

Well, I still think that before going off on full-on war we need to cut off ISIS first. I've spoken to DH who is in Tech. He thinks one of the issues social media companies face in shutting accounts down is not just the sheer amounts of accounts there are, but also the same thing that prevents the UK to do much about fundamentalist preachers in the UK: freedom of speech. Social Media is pretty much built upon that. However, if law backed them up this could change.

In the finance area, there are already laws there. But getting to do banks to do the right thing (which will cost them, as won't bring in any $$$), is the hard part.

I do just think that something has to be done about ISIS now. If they continue their terror successfully they will become a power akin to Voldemort - where even just the mention of the name will cause fear.

I know people don't want to send our troops, and this might sound cold. But at the end of the day, if people actively choose to be a soldier, fighting to save the world we live in is what you're being paid to do. And Syria's problem has ow effectively become ours, too. All countries affected by the migrant crisis should send in troops. What do people think an army is there for? We might as well stop recruiting and training them, if we never seek to engage anywhere, because then, they're no longer needed.

The only thing is - they need to learn from Iraq, and only leave after having made sure they leave behind a functioning country.

'Where does that leave ISIS?'

I think if a deal is done with Assad and if there is a committment to finish Isis then the ex-Saddam generals who are part of Isis's military, the Chechens who are working with Isis will all pack up and leave. I think Isis will disappear quite quickly if the Iranians and the Iraqis and Assad are given the green light to finish them off. Once their funding and backing is ended, then I think they will disappear.

Yes, a Syria/Iran/Russia coalition could work against ISIS but it won't take orders from EU/US so these will be involved in the background (meddling/lining pockets/serving own interests). Then there's Saudi...

Yes, I am not sure the policy against Assad will be changed, but with the refugee crisis, European governments are facing a crisis and some of them may now want to end the war and solve the refugee crisis.

The big realisation is that this is a long-term thing, that's going to take years and years. Good article in the Telegraph today. Will try and link.

The problem with 'solving the refugee crisis' is that Assad has been at war with his own people and used chemical weapons against them.
People will not just happily re settle in Syria. There is no happy ending in sight. Except for the people allowed to build a life in Europe. The refugees know this. It is why they are prepared to fight tooth and nail to get to a country where they can settle. Hungary is not the place judging by the way they are handling the refugees right now.

So we sweep in with our army and defeat Isis with out noble sword of freedom and everyone lives happily ever after? Well it worked so well in Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam ... perhaps we should give it another shot.

Thank God for this. It looks like the war is finally coming to an end. My guess is that EU leaders have been on to Putin to ask him to help them. The countries who wanted to topple Assad by force have failed after 5 years and finally other European countries will push for peace and Putin and Iran will deliver it.

"Vladimir Putin claims ally Bashar Assad is 'ready to hold elections' with 'healthy opposition'"

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/vladimir-putin-claims-ally-bashar-assad-is-ready-to-hold-elections-with-healthy-opposition-10486871.html

Oh dear, maybe not, the policy against Assad still seems to be the same. It all now depends on Germany and whether they say enough is enough and peace must now be made.

"However, Mr Putin’s views are not supported by the west or many of Mr Assad’s neighbours, who view the dictator as part of the problem."

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/vladimir-putin-claims-ally-bashar-assad-is-ready-to-hold-elections-with-healthy-opposition-10486871.html