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The Greek debt crisis....why?

999 replies

InDespair · 27/06/2015 17:24

cant find another thread about this so.....

Before anyone accuses me of being thick or burying my head in the sand, I can';t always watch the news in full, and I dont read newspapers. (and Im sure others are wondering too).

Who exactly is in debt?

the people?

the banks?

How did they get themselves into this mess, and why and how do they expect a bailout?

what have they spent all their money on?

And what about tourism?

Laymans terms please.

OP posts:
Isitmebut · 30/06/2015 12:34

BubaMarra … Similar to earlier with me, you KEEP implying those that bought investment grade Greek debt before all the ‘walts’ were fully grown & known, were somehow at fault, which is ridiculous.

Take today;
Germany 10-year government bonds yield a paltry (ultra safe) 0.74%.
Portugal 10-year government bonds yield 3.03%.

By your argument if Portugal was in deep trouble in several years time, with the benefit of your ‘arry hindsight, buying Portugal 10-year bonds today ‘at multiple yield levels to equivalent maturity German bond – with your investment logic YOU could turn around and say ‘anyone who bought Portugal back then should have known there was a problem and deserve what they get’.

You are both ‘back jobbing’ to apply blame to investors where there is none and making excuses for the Greek governments and banks – when excuses will no longer be enough to satisfy sovereign/EU creditors worried about the ability for Greece to service/repay CURRENT loans, never mind additional ones.

BTW the following link is written by the EU knowledgeable and fairly non partisan Daniel Hannan, a Conservative MEP, who believes a GREXIT would benefit the citizens of Greece, I’d suggest worth a read.
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3143904/We-hope-Greeks-courage-leave-euro-writes-DANIEL-HANNAN.html

Isitmebut · 30/06/2015 12:39

P.S. Please explain the 'yield curve thang', or are you talking about the compression of similar maturity yields of lesser quality investment grade government bonds to the better quality investment grade government bonds?

nauticant · 30/06/2015 12:51

fairly non partisan Daniel Hannan

This is the funniest thing written on the thread.

But I do agree with the other posts that the Greek people are being done a disservice to by their government who firstly have announced a referendum as a last minute spoiler (they had many months to do this) and secondly in not stating clearly and honestly what the Greek people would likely be voting for.

Isitmebut · 30/06/2015 12:59

nauticant .... re your "fairly non partisan Daniel Hannan"

"This is the funniest thing written on the thread."

With a sense of humour like that, you'd probably have laughed if your great grandmother got her tits caught in a washing mangler.

FYI Daniel Hannan is regularly critical of his own leader/party/EU, without having lost a General or any other Election first.

Isitmebut · 30/06/2015 13:38

Lastminuteplan.com; Greece to Belgium?

Reports of a new deal on a table somewhere in Brussels; Tsipras says 'maybe', Yanis 'open necked shirt' whatshisface, he says no, stating the Greeks have to decide Sunday.

I'd guess morning time at the IMF in Washington has Ms Lagarde cacking herself that as of 11 p.m. here, her IMF sinecure/job is on the line - and asking those she did a favour committing IMF funds for 'a little local difficulty' in Europe, to step up.

I can be a cynic too. lol

Hullygully · 30/06/2015 16:49

Why is the tie or otherwise relevant?

Greece does not have a bloated and inefficient state in the sense that we understand it within our framework. It has nothing but the state and hasn't had for years, see upthread. For the billionth time, Syriza want to change Greece into a modern state.

They should do an Osborn?

This is where there is no point ot the discussion, I will always put the welfare of ordinary powerless people first and think it morally right to do so.

charleybarley · 30/06/2015 17:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Isitmebut · 30/06/2015 17:04

Hullygully ...this "Modern State", I REPEAT, what does that mean and WHERE are the plans to achieve it - as everyone might want one?

You or anyone else can "put the welfare of ordinary powerless people first", or use any other leftie self-righteous mantra 13-years of a Labour government didn't achieve, but here on there, SOMEONE has to pay for it.

MrsUltracrepidarian · 30/06/2015 17:23

Ms Lagarde cacking herself that as of 11 p.m. here, her IMF sinecure/job is on the line - and asking those she did a favour committing IMF funds for 'a little local difficulty' in Europe, to step up.
Indeedy! Since when was it the brief of the IMF to prop up the Euro? Definitely a conflict of interests there.
The Pensions stuff has to be addressed, but actually the pensions are pretty tiny things - the really serious issue that is not being addressed is not reducing costs, but in raising taxes - that is where the Greeks have a real fundamental problem.
Grown-up gvts fund public services by taxes, topped up by judicious borrowing for infrastructure. The Greeks simply haven't done that -e everything has been funded by borrowing. Hence they have to start from scratch to get a tax base. (Like England did under Henry 8th - so a few centuries later...)

Viviennemary · 30/06/2015 17:55

It gets more like a game of poker by the hour. Seems as if Greece is coming up with a new proposal. What a fiasco. They can't be trusted an inch to keep to agreements. IMHO. If they let them off at this 11th hour they're mad.

Booboostoo · 30/06/2015 18:32

I should say I amGreek although I have lived abroad for the last 25 years.

Greeks have a different attitude to their states than Northern European countries. Partly due to political instability right up to the 1970s (dictatorship) the general view is that the state is not to be trusted. The state is volatile and could turn around to harm you so you have to look after yourself. This view is also partly due to the fact that the Greek state is not particularly interested with the welfare of its citizens. The aim of politicians in Greece is to line their own pockets and pay off as much of the electorate as they can in order to get re-elected. A terrible consequence of this is a huge public service sector which has no intention of serving the public.

Greeks do not expect much from the state, they will work and save to access private services in areas such as education and health, so it is not obvious why anyone would pay taxes when taxes have no social benefit. This can be an odd view for someone who comes from a tradition emphasizing the social contract between a state and its citizens. Since the state is out to get you, regardless of political creed, it's best to keep as much to yourself or accept bribes.

One of the saddest effects of the austerity drive is that it has done nothing to change the tradition of buying votes through civil service appointments and perks. Instead the measures have decimated the private sector and hit middle and lower class families the hardest.

For the Greeks the voting in of the Syriza government was partly an expression of defiance at what, they view, as devastatingly harsh measures. The most often heard expression is the need to regain dignity.

Clearly all this is but one side of the coin!

YonicScrewdriver · 30/06/2015 18:42

The euro is a major global currency - of course it concerns the IMF.

amothersplaceisinthewrong · 30/06/2015 18:55

Let Greece leave the Euro. If they don't want to play by the rules they should not be in the club.

happybubblebrain · 30/06/2015 19:03

I don't understand economics at all. I have lent money to people on occasions before (£900 once), then I realised they were never going to be able to pay me back so I let them off and stopped getting stressed about it.

Britain owes far more money than Greece (19 times as much); we are the 2nd most in debt country in the world after America. How come nearly every country in the world owes money? Do we all owe it to each other? It would make sense to me to wipe all world debts and just not stress about it. Whoever is owed the most money probably has more than they can possibly ever need anyway.

The alternative to this is more and more people suffering.

Please feel free to tell me why this is a stupid idea.

Hullygully · 30/06/2015 19:10

SURPRISE! IMF: austerity measures would still leave Greece with unsustainable debt
Secret documents show creditors’ baseline estimate puts debt at 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to all tax and spending reforms demanded by troika

Greece would face an unsustainable level of debt by 2030 even if it signs up to the full package of tax and spending reforms demanded of it, according to unpublished documents compiled by its three main creditors.

The documents, drawn up by the so-called troika of lenders, support Greece’s argument that it needs substantial debt relief for a lasting economic recovery. They show that, even after 15 years of sustained strong growth, the country would face a level of debt that the International Monetary Fund deems unsustainable.

The documents show that the IMF’s baseline estimate – the most likely outcome – is that Greece’s debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to the package of tax and spending reforms demanded. That is well above the 110% which the IMF regards as sustainable given Greece’s debt profile, a level set in 2012. The country’s debt level is currently 175% and likely to go higher because of its recent slide back into recession.

The documents admit that under the baseline scenario “significant concessions” are necessary to improve Greece’s chances of ridding itself permanently of its debt financing woes.

Even under the best case scenario, which includes growth of 4% a year for the next five years, Greece’s debt levels will drop to only 124%, by 2022. The best case also anticipates €15bn (£10bn) in proceeds from privatisations, five times the estimate in the most likely scenario.

But under all the scenarios, which all assume a third bailout programme, looked at by the troika – the European commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF – Greece has no chance of meeting the target of reducing its debt to “well below 110% of GDP by 2022” set by the Eurogroup of finance ministers in November 2012.

In the creditors own words: “It is clear that the policy slippages and uncertainties of the last months have made the achievement of the 2012 targets impossible under any scenario”.

These projections are from the report Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis for Greece, one of six documents that are part of the full set of materials that comprise the “final” proposal sent to Greece by its creditors last Friday.

These, which the Guardian has seen, were obtained by Süddeutsche Zeitung after they were sent to all German MPs with the expectation that the deal would need to be approved by the country’s parliament.

While the analysis underlines the fact that Greece has already benefited from a number of debt-reducing measures - maturities have been extended, interest payments are similar to those of less indebted nations and the public sector intervention in 2012 cut debt by about €100bn - the document also admits that under the baseline scenario “significant concessions” would improve sustainability.

But despite the lenders’ admission that Greece cannot thrive without debt relief the documents provide no clarity about what such a package might look like, nor does it provide any detail of a third bailout programme despite assuming one would exist. They promise only a more detailed debt sustainability analysis in due course.

The documents also throw light on the €35bn investment package which several governments, including Germany’s, have this week pointed out was offered to Greece last week.

The second document in the pack of six, titled Reforms for the completion of the current programme and beyond, show there was less to this offer than suggested by Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker and Germany’s vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel. The cash on offer is not an ad hoc investment but is actually an EU grant that is regularly available to all member states. And, as Süddeutsche Zeitung points out, accessing the cash requires a 15% co-financing in Greece’s case, which it cannot afford. Because of this, Greece has unspent sums from its €38bn 2007-2013 pot of available grants.

A third document outlines the “financing needs and draft disbursement schedule linked to the completion of the fifth review”, spelling out how Greece would have received €15bn to meet its obligations until the end of November. The cash would have been handed over in five tranches starting in June (as soon as the Greek parliament approved the proposals) to cover Greece’s financing needs. However, 93% of the funds would have gone straight to cover the cost of maturing debt for the duration of the extension.

The remaining documents cover the nuts and bolts of the actions that were expected to be taken by Greece in consultation with the EC/ECB/IMF. One of these papers was also published by the European Commission over the weekend.

The plan is premised on a primary surplus target of 1%, 2%, 3%, and 3.5% of GDP in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018 respectively (both sides agree on these targets). It is anchored on VAT changes producing additional revenue of 1% of GDP and a reform of the pension system that leads to savings of 1% of GDP in 2016.

On VAT reforms, the proposal suggests broadening the tax base at a standard rate of 23%, and would include restaurants, and catering. There will be a reduced rate of 13% to cover a limited set of goods, that includes energy, basic foods, hotels and water (excluding sewage).

There was also to be a super-reduced rate of 6% on pharmaceuticals, books and theatres, an increase on tax on insurance and the elimination of tax exemptions on certain islands. The creditors had originally wanted only a two-tier VAT system.

In terms of pensions, which have been the stickiest point in the negotiations, the plan demands reforms to:

Create strong disincentives to early retirement, including changes to early retirement penalties
Adopt legislation so that withdrawals from the social insurance fund will incur an annual penalty, for those affected by the extension of the retirement age period, equivalent to 10% on top of the current penalty of 6%
Ensure that all supplementary pension funds are only financed by own contributions
Gradually phase out the solidarity grant (EKAS) for all pensioners by end-December 2019. This shall start immediately for the top 20% of beneficiaries with the details of the phase-out to be agreed with the institutions
Freeze monthly guaranteed contributory pension limits in nominal terms until 2021
Provide to people retiring after 30 June 2015 the basic, guaranteed contributory, and means-tested pensions only at statutory normal retirement age, currently 67 years
Increase the relatively low health contributions for pensioners from 4% to 6% on average and extend it to supplementary pensions
On Monday Juncker insisted - incorrectly - that these measures did not amount to a cut in pensions. However, the creditors were correct in saying that they had compromised and the plans had some flexibility. They also suggested that Greece could provide alternative proposals as long as they are “sufficiently concrete and quantifiable”.

The creditors’ proposals also suggested that corporation tax rise only from 26% to 28%. Greece wanted the rate set at 29%.

caroldecker · 30/06/2015 19:15

The IMF should never have got involved alongside the EU. It is lender of last resort, it should be around now to pick up the pieces, help Greece move to a new currency, devalue and write-off a lot of debt, not involved in the mess to keep it in a currency union it should never have joined.

DoctorTwo · 30/06/2015 19:54

To those of you idiots who say that Yanis Varoufakis, the Greek Finance Minister, lacks experience and is naive etc, can I just point out he is one of the few European Finance Ministers who lectures in economics.

Now factor in that most of the world's economists agree with the Greek position and you austerity lovers look daft. If the Greeks vote yes on Sunday their economy will go into depression. If they vote no Deutsche Bank will go tits up, their derivatives book is way too high, even higher than JP Morgan.

MrsUltracrepidarian · 30/06/2015 19:59

who lectures in economics
We are supposed to be impressed? Hardly. Plenty of lecturers with no real life experience - no surprise there.

MajesticWhine · 30/06/2015 20:13

Why do they need a referendum? Don't the government already have an anti-austerity mandate? The government should do the job they have been voted in to do, not ask the people an impossible question.

MajesticWhine · 30/06/2015 20:14

Doesn't the government, sorry crap grammar.

MrsUltracrepidarian · 30/06/2015 20:20

Good point Majestic (as so lovely to have a Grammarian about Grin)
Basically its a poker game, and the referendum is to twist things a little further and buy more time.
Win win for Alexis. If it is a yes, he will resign 'with honour' Hmm.
If a a big fat Oxi he crusades on and Greece will be the victim of his hubris.

CoteDAzur · 30/06/2015 20:40

"most of the world's economists agree with the Greek position "

Err... what? Got evidence for that sweeping generalisation?

I'm guessing not.

Greece's position is basically:
(1) We got your money but don't wanna pay it back
(2) We want more money
(3) But we don't want to pay taxes, work harder, or otherwise make an effort to get our act together.

I really REALLY don't think you will find many economists who agree with the validity of that position.

What the professional macroeconomists I have spoken to say is that it would be best for Greece to leave the Eurozone and fall back on their Drachma, thereby having the possibility to use the monetary policy they require to revive the economy*. This will still be tough and austerity measures will still be necessary but it will not be as tough as relying entirely on fiscal policy as at present.

  • What this means is that if Greece has its own currency, it will be able to print money & set its own interest rates, which are important weapons that are currently not at its disposal.
WalkingThePlank · 30/06/2015 20:48

I'm not sure I'd have wanted any of my Economics lecturers to run an actual economy. Theory and practice are not the same thing. What's the saying about those who can do and those who can't teach?

Viviennemary · 30/06/2015 20:49

You don't have to be an economist to realise that debts have to be paid. And a generous welfare state has to be paid for by somebody. Something a few politicians might contemplate.

happybubblebrain · 30/06/2015 21:08

Debts don't always have to be paid back. The person who owes me £900 will never pay me back. I really don't mind because I have enough money and that person has none at all, to the point of going without food often.

Britain owes much much more than Greece, why is nobody worried about that?