Rebecca Minnock - on the run with child after court battle

[BreakingDad77]

Is this one of those cases we wont get to the bottom of as to whether she is someone with MH problems or scheming father driving her to them?

sorry, meant promote and protect their children's WELFARE.

Because that is what it is all about. Ethan is not 'hers', he is not a possession of either parent.

He is a little boy who deserves a chance to grow up into a man who can have healthy and happy relationships with other people, not grow up under the shadow of a dad who was an abuser - when this is not true.

Sabrinna, the very fact that you ask the question you did at 20.39 illustrates that you are pronouncing opinions on the basis of inadequate knowledge of the facts. I suggest you go and read the judgments that Spero has linked.

What do we do now indeed. What's a mother to do if she suspects sexual abuse of her child?

She'll now be in fear of the child being taken away from her if the court decides she's lying.

I have read the judgements.

I thought she had denied contact with the father? If he was spending the 4 nights a week with his father that the court ordered - then how was she denying contact?

Because she had established a pattern of behaviour in which she was making false allegations as justification to prevent contact. And, all the while those allegations are investigated, Ethan had no contact with his Dad.

As I understand it, the sequence of events is that the court ordered a series of reports by experts to assist in the decision regarding child arrangements. One of these reports, by social services, recommended halting the family proceedings because Rebecca was a risk to Ethan's safety, and that alternative interventions should take place.
Rebecca was advised of this the day prior to the final hearing. She took Ethan to a hospital, alleging abuse. And then she failed to appear in court. At which point, the judge ordered that Ethan should reside with his father, so permitting the court to take the steps they have to find Rebecca and Ethan.

What's a mother to do if she suspects sexual abuse?

Well - she reports it. To the police and children's services.
She turns up to the court hearings when findings of fact are made.
She appeals a judgment if it goes against her and she thinks that is wrong.
She doesn't run away with the child after failing to turn up to the court hearing.

Sabrinna, you may think you are waving a flag for women who are victims here. But what I think you are doing is encouraging people to behave in a way which will do NOTHING to protect children but merely serve to increase the pain and anguish felt by all in this kind of situation.

Sen - as my post made clear I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it is not something I personally have seen in my career. I can't speak from anything but my own personal experience and I appreciate the fact you are not challenging my own experience. And I admire your entirely respectful post!.

I can only talk about what I've been involved in. I have been present on a few occasions to support the parent when a child has been removed by social services which was always fucking horrible for anyone present . On one occasion it was shortly after birth (and when I left the maternity ward I went outside and sobbed because I cared about the parents who weren't terrible people but the child must ALWAYS come first).

I have hated voicing my concerns in court or at child protection meetings because the parents were generally doing the best they could and loved their children. But their best was damaging their children. And my professional responsibility was to not ignore that.

I would always advocate for my service users and speak out of there was any suggestion of SW or solicitors talking bollocks/lying or abusing their power. But it never happened.

Every family I've worked with says their children were removed erroneously and that ' the system fucked them over' and the system lied. It didn't in all the cases I was involved in but of course, I can't speak for all cases.

I feel incredibly guilty now that when I was first in practice as a newly - qualified MH nurse I didn't fully grasp the concept of emotional abuse and was seeing families where the children were loved, not physically neglected or abused and I thought that was enough.

After 17 years in MH I'm seeing those same little ones that I knew that seemed well looked after coming into MH services suffering the consequences of growing up with a mentally ill parent on terms of emotional abuse.

I have to live with that but I didn't know at the time.

Sabrinna,

I have been in that position to have had to raise concerns of abuse.

But in this case, that was not the sole reason for the judgements. The mother in this case had a long history of false allegations.

But in this case she is lying and what she is doing is wicked. The fact she thinks what she is going is right? Egged on by her family.. Deluded is not strong enough.
I hope they are found soon. Ethan returned to his father and mother has to have contact and psychological help. I despise this 'owning' a person, a child. The disposal of people when they have given you what you want - a child. It's so so wrong. And she is going to pay the ultimate price.
My sons have different fathers and I have encouraged and nurtured their relationships with an open door policy. I can't say for me it's been easy, when you are smarting from relationship failure it's hard to see the wood for the trees, but my boys are nearly grown. They deserve to know and have good relationships with their dads. I don't have the right to take that away from them.

Spero,

That is exactly the action that I took and at no point was I ever in danger of losing the relationship with my child because that is what a parent does when they have a genuine concern.

Which doesn't seem to be the case here.

Sabrinna,

I think it is actually you that appears to have the agenda here and this is exactly what encourages people to make false allegations and think they will get away with it.

I think the problem here is that Sabrinna genuinely believes the mother is telling the truth and thus must do what she did to protect her child.

I will refer her to the answer that Mr Butt gave before he was sent to prison for 28 days about 'chaos and anarchy' ensuing if everyone decided to act like this.

If her concerns are real, why didn't she turn up to the court hearing and make her case? What will happen if everyone decides just to do whatever they feel like, whenever they feel like? If we are judged by what random neighbours or people on the internet think about us?

this case has much, much wider ramifications than just the operation of the family court system.

Its is shining a really uncomfortable light on how some people are prepared to judge and condemn others on the word of someone who has already been found to have lied. Because they want to believe her story. Because it 'sounds right'.

Agreed Spero,

This is the reason I felt compelled to join the discussion.

And it is playing right into the hairy hands of the MRA who can reasonably say on the basis of some of the responses to this case, that women are irrational and can just make it up as they go along.

Thus no one's interests are served, certainly not victims of abuse/violence who need to be heard.

I think the problem here is that Sabrinna genuinely believes the mother is telling the truth and thus must do what she did to protect her child.

I do believe she fears for her child, yes - but I'd appreciate it if people would stop telling me what I believe or putting words into my mouth. No, I don't wish to encourage people to make false allegations - but false allegations are incredibly rare - and according to Keir Starmer, far rarer than everyone thinks. His findings were less than 3%.

She says she's lost all faith in the court system - I'm inclined to agree with her, because seeing what my friend has been put through - I've lost a little faith too.

I have often come up against (not in court) "you must have done something in order for her to do this" and watch the said person struggle to find a way to blame me for my ex's actions when the truth was right there in front of them.

And as for 'neighbours speaking out' I've been present at a family court hearing where lots of supportive family members and neighbours turned out too.

I knew this service user well (and liked her and understood her life circumstances). She told me on a break from court proceedings that she knew she couldn't look after her baby (taken into LA care) as she couldn't even look after herself as she was an addict. But she wanted to make it the responsibility of the courts and social workers as 'baby snatchers' rather than publicly admit she couldn't look after a child. And she's a woman I see occasionally many years later and we have a (some may deem it unprofessional) hug
She came from a background with generations of children taken into care - ad she was. She felt she HAD to fight the system because going along with it and acknowledging her inability look after her children would have been unacceptable.

Sorry for putting words into your mouth Sabrinna, but your position is very confusing to me. Possibly this is my fault.

You seemed to be arguing earlier that it would be traumatic to 'remove' the child from his mother as 'all' she was doing was denying him a relationship with his father.

If you don't believe the mother is telling the truth, do you think that what she is doing carries no or little risk of harm to the child? Are you saying, in effect, that you don't think the father is important to this child?

If you are not saying that, what are you saying? What do you think is the right outcome in this case? I am genuinely interested, not being sarky.

I don't know about MRA's, during my own hellish experience I have not come across any and I certainly don't believe that women are irrational and can just make it up as they go along.

But some people are irrational and do make things up as they go along, from my own experience though solicitors, barristers and judges are savvy when it comes to cases like these.

sonnyson, I hope I have been clear throughout this thread that I don't think fear, prejudice or downright cruelty have a sex. This is not a men/women issue.

But a lot of people seem to want to make it so. Which is not just a waste of their time, but dangerous too.

False allegation in the family court arena are anything but rare, no way only 3%.

I would agree with that.

The interesting question is what motivates the false allegation. I do think outright black hearted lies are pretty rare. Most people have convinced themselves that they are right. Some have better grounds than others on which to build this false belief.

What is your source for sonny? Just a feeling? I'll go with Keir Starmer's findings then.

I believe that in some cases men and women can behave terribly, I have found and to some degree experienced, that when a mother makes false allegations in the family court when young children are involved it can cause untold damage and take years to resolve.

But I appreciate that both genders can behave appallingly. It is just that in this case we are able to discuss it publicly due to the mothers extreme actions.

You will rely on Keir Starmer's findings but not the findings of a Circuit Judge who heard evidence from three different professionals?

Why one and not the other?

Because one supports your world view, and the other doesn't?

My Source is Spero the family solicitor with years of experience.