Leaving children 'home alone' - what do you think?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello all

A parent is arrested for leaving their child alone every day, according to new research.

The law doesn't currently specify the age at which children can be left on their own - and charges in the last three months of last year involved children between the ages of three months and 14 years.

What do you think? How old were your DC when you left them 'home alone' - and would you like to see the age at which a child can be left unsupervised defined in law?

Exactly Chem which is what I think is needed.

Not sure what to say on that one Smelly to be honest.

Gota bee in your bonnet Flower?

I suspect the children on whom you are basing your personal views of how old a child can sensibly be left alone for 20 mins are not nearly as mature and sensible for their ages as you think (I.e. far less so than the children whose parents do leave them alone for that length of time) or its all about you - your paranoia, your need to be deep, deep in your comfort zone all the time, your fear of being judged, your mixed up Iidea that the more over protective you are the better a parent you are - or your unwillingness to teach your children how to deal with all reasonably likely scenarios and drill them in emergency procedures until they are second nature.

As others have said it takes far more effort to bring a child to the stage where they have the skills and confidence to be left than just to keep them at your elbow all day.

As others have said too, the role of a parent isn't primarily to be Iin the same room/ building as a child at all times, it is to build slowly, slowly, towards that child's self reliance and independence.

My older children could do everything on that NSPCC list from age 7 - yes, reliably and confidently. I know they get out on autopilot if the fire alarm beeps because it'shappened, I know they phone my mobile Iif they have a query when I'mpicking their little brother up (or taking one of them to a friend/ club etc.) If the children you know couldn't reliably manage they shouldn't be left, but fortunately you don't get to make decisions for anyone else, and your blanket declarations are nonsense based on nobody knows what, but ccertainly not wide knowledge of the capabilities of my kids or immediate neighborhood and support network nor those of the other posters who have risk assessed their own situations.

I make no secret of leaving my 7.5 year old and/ or 9 yo - the 4 year old ' s Kindergarten staff know and agree it's aappropriate at this stage, school staff know and expect it as it's utterly normal, neighbors and fellow school mums know and do the same - I double checked with another mum a few weeks ago whether she was ok with me leaving her 9 yo home with my 9 yo while I fetched my 7 yo during a play date or whether I should take her and she laughed aand said of course I shouldleave them home - tthey're 9!

I sometimes get frustrated living Iin a country not of my birth and having to operate in my 2nd language, but thank fuck Iin Germany no pearl clutching hand wringer thinks the police or social services will do anythingbut laugh Iif they rang to "report" me for leaving a 9 year old homealone for 20-30 mins :o

In England (and indeed the US) people are completely paranoid in a way that mystifies our European cousins. There, children often walk to school with peers from about 7, and would be quite capable of popping to the shop for a comic alone at a similar age, or sitting watching TV while a parent popped next door to see a neighbour for a few minutes, for example. Here people think leaving a child of that age is tantamount to abandonment.

The NSPCC and similar organisations make a lot of noise about this kind of thing and child protection has become a massive industry here. The Vetting and Barring Scheme is another example of child protection gone mad (luckily that was stopped just before it became law). We need to be wary of the huge scale commercialisation and professionalisation of these initiatives, which are no substitute for the reciprocal protections of citizens in a healthy society. I have seen deeply offensive leaflets distributed that undermine family freedoms quite acutely, in a way that in my opinion causes indirect harm to society by 'othering' children, ascribing vulnerabilities to them that simply aren't appropriate, and stigmatising parents. Meanwhile when desperate parents whose children really are at risk (for example through grooming) ask for help they are invariably fobbed off, as really the child protection industry can only be bothered with the low hanging fruit (eg making a fuss about children being on their own from time to time, and selling CPD courses to each other) and not the really complex, stomach-churning abuse that is still endemic in society and needs our full attention. Another example might be some of the excesses that take place within the Traveller community with beatings and fist fights, local thefts and school truancy being routine in some cases, yet this is regarded as 'cultural' by politically correct councils and intervention not resourced properly.

An aside - I find it incredible we can consider 10 to be the age of legal responsibility yet people are being arrested for leaving children alone up to the age of 14 (although I imagine this would only happen if the child had been left overnight). Are children responsible from 10 or not?

Flower girl now agreeing with Chem that the guidance isn't specific enough and that a law wouldn't be that vague.

Eh? Flower girl now contradicting her previous argument?

Good post Boffinmum....agree completely.

I personally don't think any under sixteen should be left in charge of children and no child under 12 should be left alone even to just 'pop to here there etc' if I knew of any one who left their 8 9 10 yr old alone I would be quite concerned , I think a age law should be put in place and sooner the better after reading some posts,

You do realise that even in the UK the norm is for 11 year olds to cross the town by bus on their own to get to school don't you 2boys?

Why though 2?

Why 12? Is it a magic number? A 12 year old who has not had any build up to being left could then be left for hours and get bored/ panic/ forget what to do, where a 10 year old who has been left for very short periods in the preceding couple of years and had years to internal use what to do, been taught and (where appropriate, such as fire safety) done test runs etc. knows lots of neighbors to go to, is used to going to neighbors houses to call for friends so wouldn't be perturbed going to a well known and approved neighbor for help, is used to using the phone to contact various people including parents, grandparents and friends who are neighbors etc. Would handle that situation vastly better than an unprepared 12 year old.

Anyway I'm hiding this thread now because the tutters are just tutting and making random declarations of ages plucked from the sky at which children in the UK will wake up old enough to be left, and not one can explain why they think UK children are so vastly less competent than Scandinavian, German, Dutch, French, Japanese. .. etc etc.

Boffinmum 's post raises excellent and quite chilling points.

Flower you keep contradicting yourself. In one sentence you say "you don't understand the confusion" then in the next sentence you talk about "lack of clarity".

My Mum is in her 80s, she says she'd hate to be bringing up a family these days as there are so many rules and people are so judgy. She did her parenting in a time when more women stayed at home so childcare costs weren't an issue but she didn't have me clinging to her side 24/7 after about the age of 7. In fact we would go to the caravan at the weekends. As soon as we got there, I would be off with my pals and they wouldn't see me again until tea time. We would go roaming all around, near water, in woods and all manner of things which has probably made you a bit faint.
No one batted an eyelid or judged her because that's how people rolled then.
And that's how I try to roll now.

You will obviously never see things from others points of view but can you even agree to disagree or are you going to be like a dog with a bone on this

There's a lot of 'I think personally' and 'My view is that' in these posts. The problem is this is that the logic is circular and that is results in a gradual escalation over time of the supposed protections that children 'need', combined with a restrictive idea of what parents should be 'allowed' to do. After all, it is a rare person who will come out with it and say 'I think children should be made less safe/be less protected'. Meanwhile we deskill older children of their self-care skills and leave them wide open to accidents, abuse and manipulation. A balance is required if children are allowed to develop such skills in the right way at the right time.

This US article is a little dated (1999) but makes sensible arguments about the need for proper research into the real impact of self-care on children, because frankly there isn't a lot out there, even now. This comes from the discussion section:

---

Taken together, national surveys and smaller studies, despite their limitations, provide some useful information for policymakers. The fact that tens of thousands of preschoolers spend time unsupervised is a case in point. These very young children clearly form one group that merits the further attention of both researchers and policymakers. A second useful lesson is that self-care is not a simply defined experience that always requires or is amenable to a one-size-fits-all policy prescription. The evidence shows that parents choose self-care for their children under a wide variety of circumstances and for a wide variety of reasons. Some children may be fortunate enough to experience self-care as a safe, developmentally appropriate step toward independence. Others may be left alone before they are mature enough to cope and may even suffer emotional or physical harm as a result. Future research could focus on refining our understanding of which children suffer as a result of self-care and what care alternatives would best meet the needs of those children and their families.

---

Incidentally regarding the point about the age someone ought to be able to self-care, this person was legally old enough to be left on her own, and look what happened. We do not shout nearly loud enough about real need such as this. We are too busy banging on about whether 9 is too young to cycle to school alone, for example.

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/09/woman-left-to-starve-raid-care-company

Also think BoffinMums post was very good...and expanding on it slightly...if we (the government we) decided on an arbitrary age, say 12, for a kid to be 'allowed' to be home alone, does that mean that an adult who left sensible child of 11 years and 364 days old home alone would be prosecuted, but an adult that left an immature child that was one day older home alone, wouldn't?

There cannot be a blanket age - it has to be parent led, because it's only the parent that knows their child.

I'd trust my DD, I wouldn't trust her Friend1 as she's a very nervous child and I wouldn't trust her Friend2 as she's a very silly child.

This has reminded me that DS's junior school (which has recently been rated outstanding) operates a scheme where any child can have a pass from home allowing them to leave school alone. So children from the age of 7.

Most kids are collected by their parents but a fair number aren't. I can only assume those kids are going home alone. Ofsted had no concerns about this system when they made their assessment

IMO I do think an age law needs to be brought in,yes I think 12 is about right I'm not saying 12 should be the age but is the age I would leave my children , im aware they walk to/from school before this age but I would still like to think an adult was awaiting their return,.... Like said this is only imo,

I am in Germany and take my 6 year old DC to school as it is a 45 minute bus and tram journey away which also requires the crossing of a couple of very busy main roads. I do try to teach independence by letting DC walk the last bit seemingly unsupervised, but do still keep an eye out when DC is not looking.

However, most kids here walk to the local school independantly from the age of 6/7 and this is actively encouraged by the schools. And as school finishing times vary and can be as early as 11am many kids spend a bit of time alone at home or go to a neighbour until a parent gets back home.

Over here seeing children play on the street/playground unsupervised and spending time home alone for a limited period is considered normal and tbh I am glad that as a parent I do not need to live in the UK where these things appear to be considered neglectful.

I've just got back from a trip to Japan where you can see really quite young children making their way to and from school on the train/subway/bus independently. I'm not great at judging children's ages, but some of them looked to be six or seven, and all looked perfectly confident about it.

I live in Canada and here we have courses run by organisations like the St John's Ambulance for ten year olds to be 'home alone' and for 12 year olds to babysit. This seems like a much better approach than criminalisation as it makes sure that children have the skills and confidence they need. The current UK approach appears to be one that reduces independence and means that children have less opportunities. Even though the risks are probably less than when I was growing up everyone has become incredibly risk averse. Now when children are left alone it's likely to be in secret, which has to be more dangerous surely?

Ironically if all seven year olds were expected to walk to school without parents, no end of things would end up being safer - better road design, critical mass of kids keeping an eye out for each other, local citizens keeping a watchful eye and offering support. It's the chaperoning that ends up making things collectively and statistically less safe. In other words, if you drive your kid to school, they might end up a bit safer but it means a higher risk for other kids from the traffic.

Yes I think it's had some sad knock on effects. When we still lived in London children didn't socialise much after school because no one played out as it was thought to be far too dangerous. Because there were so few children about it probably was more dangerous for those children, who were then much less visible to car drivers etc.

That's exactly it Boffin , like cycling, the more cyclists the safer it is for everyone.

Sorry but why do you think I'm contradicting myself?

I have said repeatedly that the law as it stands is dangerous. As it stands it is legal to leave (for instance) an 8 year old until they get injured or upset about it, at which point, potentially, it becomes neglect. I have argued that a proper law with a specific age outlined would mean that parents knew where they stood.
I have also said that the opinions on this page have shocked me as, genuinely, I would never have believed that people would be thinking it acceptable to leave children so young- hence even more need for a law.
Where's the contradiction?? I'm wondering whether some people just feel better attacking me than actually reading my posts.

To Boffin- I don't believe in de-skilling children at all but I do believe in allowing them to develop independent skills in a safe way. There are a great many ways children can grow in independence without being left alone to sink or swim.

Re the outstanding school that Ofsted is happy about and that allows children to leave alone. I repeat what I said earlier. At 3.30 or whatever time your child's school finishes, the school stops being responsible for the safety of your child and you start. Ofsted won't care at all! However if the school allowed your child (the same child) to wander around the streets during the school day then without a doubt Ofsted would have them for failing to Safeguard children. The letter you sign, the pass whatever is to protect the school so that you don't shout at them for letting your child leave without you there.

I've asked two questions during this conversation that have been ignored in favour of telling me (wrongly) that I have contradicted myself. I'll try again and see whether anyone can answer. 1) If you think it's ok to leave a 6 year old for 30 mins to go to the supermarket, would you think it's acceptable for someone to leave a 6 year old for 30 mins to go to the pub?2) if your 8 year old child was bullied/injured at school and you discovered that at the time there had been no supervision what would you do?

I don't think it makes that much difference where you spend the 30 minutes, as long as you don't end up drunk - psychologically it feels more "right" to leave them for a practical reason, but that is all.

Even at school children aren't at that close supervision all the time - in my son's school 350 cildren are in the playground, bullying or injuries can happen. Of course the school should deal with it, but I would accept that they can't watch him every minute of the day.

What you haven't really answered flowergirl are the cultural differences - how come Germany isn't full
of children injured at home when it's so dangerous?

End of day its what sits right for you, I could and would never leave my 8yr old home alone as god forbid something happened I would never forgive my self,
Just because other countries do don't make it right
(Food for thought ..... McCann's)

If you think it's ok to leave a 6 year old for 30 mins to go to the supermarket, would you think it's acceptable for someone to leave a 6 year old for 30 mins to go to the pub?

30 minutes is 30 minutes, it doesn't matter where those 30 minutes take place.

if your 8 year old child was bullied/injured at school and you discovered that at the time there had been no supervision what would you do?

Kids aren't supervised every minute of every day at school. Bullying can take place in a 5 min toilet break as easily as in 30 minutes in a playground - or even over 'Messenger' with a teacher sat next to them. If my child was being bullied the supervision issue would be the least of my worries - because I don't blame the staff for the things that the kids do.

The McCann thing is just silly to bring up here - she was three, her siblings even younger, and left asleep - no comparison to leaving a sensible 8 year old who knows where you're going and when you'll be back.