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islamist extremists strike in france

999 replies

KareninsGirl · 07/01/2015 13:00

My thoughts are with the victims of the latest barbaric act by Islamic extremists.

The world needs to wake up and defend itself.

RIP those who died and prayers for those critically injured.

at French magazine office www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883

OP posts:
msgrinch · 09/01/2015 19:49

agent.

your post is informed and quite beautiful. I'm sorry for the loss your father and colleagues may feel now. You put your point so eloquently.

msgrinch · 09/01/2015 19:57

Perma

the grocer store murderer told french tv (no daily mail) they were acting for Islamic state..... So I guess you were wrong.

Maybe it's time to apologise for your vile rants towards posters who were telling you this all along.

Rosa · 09/01/2015 20:00

i think that in Europe they should go back to closing the borders,..all of them . Controls at every frontier, anyone on a suspicious list which should be internationally circulated should either be refused entry or electronically tagged.
Probably goes against all the wonderful things the European big wigs have agreed on in Brussels but I don't think they were expecting things like this to happen either.
It was Paris but they could have easily driven into Italy, Spain, Germany taking the weapons with them and nobody would have a clue .

fourmummy · 09/01/2015 20:08

AgentCooper - the reason why your heart breaks is because, like all of us, you recognise the basic disconnect between an individual, who can indeed be a 'nice person' and the hegemonic belief system that they subscribe to/are exposed to/are socilaised into. Quite clearly, humans are all the same - we feel emotions, we laugh, cry, love our children, enjoy food, feel jealousy. Somebody can indeed be a wonderful human being but subscribe to negative views. That does not make them "a bad person" - all it means that their culture permits or even encourages the expression of such views ('culture' defined here as family, peers groups, religion, current economic, political, historical time). If we stop trying to focus on individuals and instead focus our attentions on what we are allowed/encouraged to believe/which behaviours are permitted, then we might begin to understand how change can come about. The article I posted yesterday has, I think, the solution. It encourages Muslims to fragment their identities as Muslims, which, at the moment, are very tightly and almost impenetrably interwoven with Islam: It asks to uncouple Islam from a Muslim identity and begin playing around with other identities - that of being an atheist Muslim, an agnostic Muslim, a gay Muslim scientist, etc.. We do this routinely in our Western cultures - we can occupy several, sometimes what may seem as traditionally contradictory identities at once - a Christian gay scientist, and no-one bats an eyelid. I firmly believe that this will begin to happen with second and third onwards generations - once young people begin to experience the freedoms available here, will they really choose to turn their back on them? Can we draw parallels between the 'battle' between Eastern Bloc communism and free market democratic western societies? What did people want and which system emerged victorious?

WetAugust · 09/01/2015 20:08

Rosa

I think you're right. Terrorists will find a way around, but it will catch some and make their task more difficult.

AuntieStella · 09/01/2015 20:08

Islamic State?

Does this mean that AQ and IS are now working together?

Because the Kouachis stated they were AQ Yemen (and there has already been commentary in their known links to that group).

fourmummy · 09/01/2015 20:17

In another lifetime, those brothers could have been surgeons.

WetAugust · 09/01/2015 20:22

Fourmummy

Islam is not something that a Muslim can compartmentalise. It is their very being. To admit otherwise would be a form of apostasy.

I hoped, like you, that education would allow people to question to their belief systems but look at the backgrounds and opportunities that some of our home grown terrorists and jihadis have enjoyed? Private schools, first class education, training for prestige occupations and still they are compelled to throw it away and commit terrorist crimes

What we should be asking ourselves is why early generations of Muslims felt able to live peaceably in the UK in the decades before 911? When you rarely saw a hijab and The practices of Islam were hardly known outside that community.

What changed? Internet? Spread of Wahabbiam? Reaction to 911? Assertion of identity that earlier generations didn't feel confident to assert? Faith schools? western democratic accommodation of beliefs?

I am not saying it was any if all if the above. Im just offering some ideas to help us understand how we got here and in doing so, how we can heal this perceived rift.

msgrinch · 09/01/2015 20:24

auntie. This is exactly my confusion. Reporting over that vile scum at the grocery store is saying he stated his intentions as acting on behalf of Islamic state. yet ordered the brothers release. If they have decided club together then we are in a whole different ballgame

sebsmummy1 · 09/01/2015 20:30

I would suggest that the more orthodox British Muslims don't feel a sense of humility and gratitude like their Parents/Grandparents as they believe this is their country (which it is). They are not happy with the Western culture of promiscuity and recreational drinking, along with the emancipation of women and acceptability of homosexuality and atheism. So they prefer to live within their own communities (as do Jewish, Italian, Polish etc) and support the more extreme element who try to force change.

Ubik1 · 09/01/2015 20:38

I think ordinary Muslims are just as much at risk of terror attacks as the rest of us.

Ubik1 · 09/01/2015 20:42

Is also suggest that the Middle East conflicts are now coming to Europe. It's creeping into a world war.

woodhill · 09/01/2015 20:45

good point Sebs

MissYamabuki · 09/01/2015 20:51

I wonder if the supermarket hostage-takers weren't really working with the two brothers... they were just saying that to create the sense of an organised series of attacks and heighten panic.

I have heard the conversation between the male hostage-taker and the journalist - he just didn't sound very convincing when he said he was in contact with the brothers.

Also the idea of AQ and IS working together strikes me as odd.

fourmummy · 09/01/2015 21:01

Wet - I haven't thought this through but will try to articulate: Several points stroke me as important:

  1. early generations of Muslims lived peaceably - well, yes and no. I still maintain that if the Koran has this now -

"Quran verse 4:89, saying to "seize and kill" disbelievers? Or 8:12-13, saying God sent angels to "smite the necks and fingertips" of disbelievers, foreboding a "grievous penalty" for whoever opposes Allah and his Messenger? Or 5:33, which says those who "spread corruption" (a vague phrase widely believed to include blasphemy and apostasy) should be "killed or crucified"? Or 47:4, which also prescribes beheading for disbelievers encountered in jihad" (cited in my article referenced yesterday)

it had it in there 'before' as well. If they subscribed to Islam then, then they would endorse these assertions. So, a) it's not peaceable b) they may not have waged war overtly like now but you can see how believing this would incite violence. Why did they not wage overt war in the past? I don't know - numbers, a critical mass, a more violent reinterpretation (!)?

  1. Bible has this too - but we don't subscribe to these views much, if at all, to the extent that children don't even know that they exist (generalising, obviously). Why did we turn away from endorsing such views? Feminism is one answer. The increasing acceptance of marginalised groups to have their voices heard (gays) and influence policy. Why?
  2. I think the communist connction is important for comparison - why did the people reject communism, which resulted in its collapse? Lack of religion? Why did they see Western values as so desirable? Why do they enjoy 'freedom' so completely and yet Islam does not want it (our type of freedom).
  3. It's important to note that many citizens here also are not particularly enamoured with certain Western cultural aspects - pornography, alcoholism, drugs (although the double standards on these that I've observed in certain Islamic countries are truly stunning). Various groups exert pressure to try and effect social change, e.g., feminists and pornography. This is how society moves (I won't say 'progresses'). We have a fragmentation of beliefs - believe what you want and say what you want. You may get criticised, you may not. The point is that we can question, delete, reinstate, try something different. Does this happen in Islam? I don't know.

I still believe that education is the only answer. If your your mother dies of cancer because she was not allowed to visist a doctor, and you see the rest of thr world having their life extended or even getting cured because of new scientific research, what will you want?

lemonmuffin1 · 09/01/2015 21:06

This is Europe's version of 9/11.

As the op says: The world needs to wake up and defend itself.

LemonySnug · 09/01/2015 21:12

Totally agree, but I doubt the political elites and journalistic elites are willing to do so. It will be. Left to ordinary people.

frumpet · 09/01/2015 21:15

I don't understand how it is comparable with 9/11 lemonmuffin1 ?

lemonmuffin1 · 09/01/2015 21:18

have a little think then frumpet, maybe check out the news?

frumpet · 09/01/2015 21:27

Got Al jazeera on and thinking too , still don't get it ? Possibly because I grew up in a time when you gave bins in the train station a very wide berth , until they removed them permanently , when you understood that people who you had never met hated you enough to want to blow you to smithereens given the opportunity , that the only reason your Dad was alive was because he swapped a shift.

Yet I will never ever forget the day of 9/11 . What has happened in Paris is truly abhorrent , but it is not comparable to what happened on 9/11 . I hope there is never another .

fourmummy · 09/01/2015 21:37

Another point is that all religions (ideologies) have to preach a certain amount of peace because, quite simply, constant battle is costly in evolutionary terms (deaths, stress,). Societies will not survive if they are engaged in constant battle - an expedient reason for religions to preach peace in order to encourage their own survival. Islam puzzles me on this. However, Chrstianity gave up violence and is dwindling (not very nuanced but the point is clear). Any explanations?

claig · 09/01/2015 21:42

'Also the idea of AQ and IS working together strikes me as odd.'

Good point, MissYamabuki. I didn't realise one said he was told to do it by Al Qaeda. It is strange.

ElizabethLemon · 09/01/2015 21:44

Not sure if this has already been posted but this is what boko haram have been up to while all this has been going on in France.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/boko-haram-deadliest-massacre-baga-nigeria

Horrifying.

ToomanyChristmasPresents · 09/01/2015 21:49

For those trying to understand, I suggest reading Eric Hoffer's 1951 book, "The True Believer." It's written in simple language and has some compelling explanations of mass movements and those who participate or even martyr themselves for them.

www.amazon.co.uk/True-Believer-Thoughts-Movements-Perennial/dp/0060505915/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420839861&sr=1-1&keywords=the+true+believer

TroelsNextCampaignManager · 09/01/2015 22:09

Elizabeth thanks for posting the Nigeria story, I hadn't seen it yet. Nigeria (and now Cameroon, it seems) really need help to tackle Boko Haram, imho, because they seem to be killing with impunity. 2000 lives snuffed out for no reason and they don't care who they kill, maim and rape or what religion they are. I still wonder how many of those poor girls will eventually return to their families, and what state they will be in.

I also wonder if the reason why more isn't done is because Nigeria don't want to call on help because they don't want to be seen as weak, or because the victims are so far away in the minds of people in Europe and the USA?

What is certain is that these atrocities are bad for Nigeria, bad for the region and bad for Africa.

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