islamist extremists strike in france

[KareninsGirl]

My thoughts are with the victims of the latest barbaric act by Islamic extremists.

The world needs to wake up and defend itself.

RIP those who died and prayers for those critically injured.

at French magazine office www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883

Once you give a belief system the status of a race then all criticism is prohibited.

Who has the ability to do that? Can I give a belief system the same definition as a tropical plant or a species of marsupial?

I think it is reasonable to be wary of Islam but not want to harm anyone itms. Some of the followers have values that are incompatible with Western culture and it is worrying.

So too did the Washington Sniper and Dr Harold Shipman. It's entirely possible that both world wars had values consistent with western culture and they killed far more people than jihadis in western cities. As has the flu virus. Last time I checked, despite the major wars, we're still here.

I think that is true Dora but is it that relevant to the murders on Paris?

in Paris

Who has the ability to do that? Well for example dreamingbohemian tried to say that the difference between race and religion was just semantics. It's really very common to say on MN that not agreeing with a religion is racist.

And where do we stand with Judaism. People often try to say that if you disagree with their religion you're being racist because there's one word for both.

As for the world wars that came up on another thread I was on. I now wonder if we should have stayed at home for WWII and watched. Anyone got a time machine?

The definition of xenophobia says it's an unreasonable fear or hatred

Go to Iraq, hold up one of the cartoons and then post on here telling us if you feel fear or unreasonable fear.

Go on. We'll wait.

I will not be shamed for being anti ALL religion - it is a cancer of humanity an ever present restriction on progress.

Quilliam has released the following statement and recommendations which i fully support but i would like to add a further recommendation.

Beyond the increase in security that will be necessary to catch the perpetrators of this cowardly act and stop the immediate plans for future attacks, European authorities must accept that there is no security solution for jihadist terrorism in Europe.

The European Union must develop a clear and consistent strategy for countering the Islamist extremist messaging that is used for radicalisation and recruitment to jihadist causes. We welcome the news that a temporary panel of experts is to be set up to advise governments on challenging Islamic State propaganda, but urge that this becomes a permanent body that can challenge the whole spectrum of Islamist ideologies and extremist narratives of all kinds.

European civil society must be resilient in the face of extremist provocations and not resort to far-right extremism or anti-Muslim hatred, which only serves to reinforce the worldview of Islamist extremists and aid recruitment to terrorist organisations.

Instead, civil society must treat extremism of all kinds as a social ill, even before it becomes violent. Muslim organisations have a role to play within this and must challenge extremist ideas that are used to legitimise terrorism. They must fulfill their role in preventing the creation within Muslim communities of an atmosphere conducive to terrorism.

We urge a period of introspection within Muslim communities in the West to seek the compatibility between their faith and their existence in liberal democracies of the 21st century. In particular, we support Muslims who want to challenge medieval blasphemy codes and want to seize their religion back from the violent extremists who have hijacked it.

Education, education, education. A significant increase across Europe in funding of the sciences and rational thinking.

I don't think anyone has said it's unreasonable to be fearful of Islamist extremists or members of Isis, have they?

Thanks for the clarification dreaming.

I suspect that one of the problems is the media. Let's say that there are about 1.5 billion muslims. Say there are below 20,000 ISIS members and a handful of jihadis in a handful of western countries who are capable of doing a 7/7 (will more come back from Syria? maybe)

That's a minuscule proportion of balaclava wearing rocket carriers. But, the western media spends all day following around the tiny fraction with black hats on. If the problem was really that bad, the SAS could pay a visit, in the middle of the night, to the European-based ones that spies have on record. I know of some countries whose secret services do things that way round, (albeit not in Europe).

That's incredibly naive, Dora.

The number of people actually physically carrying out the atrocities doesn't really matter when they actually have many millions of supporter.

One of the biggest myths here is that "we are only talking about a tiny number if Muslims who feel this way". Here in the UK, that's true. Worldwide...no.

And get the SAS to take them out? Seriously? Hell, why not get James Bond on the case?

From the conversations i have had with muslim colleagues they themselves are fearful of extremists and isis. I read somewhere that over 97% of the victims of extremists are muslim and they have done untold damage to the religion that they purport to defend.

I've already mentioned my fear of the popularity of fat right groups but another thing that worries me is the anti liberty legislation the EU had today suggested. Surely in trying to curb the activities of a group of murderous idiots the freedoms and liberties of us all should not be compromised?

They haven't got millions of supporters. It is important to keep this in perspective. Sjy told us that there are about 900 French Muslims fighting in Syria as Jihadis, and that is out of a population of about 5 million in France.

These fanatics are a tiny minority of criminals, bandits and fanatics.

The French police said they were looking for 3 people in connection with these attacks, and one of them has handed himself in because he was in class at the time of the attack and his classmates, who were with him, have tweeted that he is innocent because he was in class with them. So how did the police think that he was involved? Today Channel 4 News told us that one of the two brothers who escaped dropped his ID on the floor.

dreamingbohemian I'm back - 'moderate Muslim/moderate Islam' - please define... because are you seriously saying that only extremists/ a few lone-wolf jihadists who practice forced marriage, burqa-wearing and attached paraphernalia, e.g., grills around mouths to stop women talking(I think that's what it's for), not allowing women to visits a GP without a male accompanying them (all of these are practiced here in the UK). I don't know how many more times I can say it - it's the ideology.

Semantics - Islam is currently relevant but we could just as easily discuss Christianophobia, Catholicphobia, seximsphobia, racismphobia...What is it about Islam that makes everyone go crazy?

Stealth- were my views solicited on whether my children should eat halal food at school or was the practice stealthily introduced?

Education, education, education. A significant increase across Europe in funding of the sciences and rational thinking. - yes, yes, yes

The Tudors have shown us in their battles with the Papists, that the most attractive plan for ridding ourselves of murderous domestic foes is to murder them before they can murder us.

The rack, hang, drawing and quartering, anyone? I'm not sure if the Tower has good railings these days. But, word from Vlad the Impaler, is that heads on spikes does well.

I could have my history backwards. But, I think there are serious effectiveness problems involved in lopping the heads off all would-be assassins, (not to mention the democratic obstacles.)

Sorry, those Tudors who weren't active Papists themselves.

There has obviously been horror expressed at what happened in Paris. People in Europe need to wake up to the threat. This doesn't mean that people are to take the law into their own hands & start persecuting innocent muslims going about their daily & lawful business. It does mean facing the very real threat posed by extremists. They don't regard anyone as being innocent, not even children. Parents in the west in the main, want their children to grow up in safety & peace. The kind of people who shot the journalists in France don't have the same ideals. In Gaza, children are being groomed, not in the sense we've come to know it, but groomed for martyrdom. What is going through the mind of a mother, getting her toddler used to putting on a vest, which will one day be filled with explosives so he can blow himself up along with some of the people his parents regard as their enemies?

And, what effect have Spartan mothers had on mankind by sending their sons away at the age of seven to join one of the most effective fighting forces of the Ancient World? Being groomed since birth, for warrior status, is not exactly new.

What is the size of the threat, to the west? Compared with Belfast from the 70s and 80s? Probably not much. The threat (and deaths) will probably be far fewer than from US school shootings which haven't happened yet.

Again and again, the same posters are wilfully misinterpreting the views of anyone who says 'hang on, you can't tar all Muslims with the same brush.' You know that's all they are trying to say: don't treat all Muslims as equal to fanatics, just because someone identifies as a Muslim, it doesn't mean they follow the Qu'ran by rote and don't question aspects of their faith.

Twist the words of others all you want - but I don't think it's a fitting tribute to those who were murdered at Charlie Hebdo.

People saying Islam is the only religion which has so much violence associated with it in the modern age. Fucking get real. Did anyone at your (Catholic) school get stabbed to death for wearing a Celtic strip? Did buses of schoolkids get stones chucked at them on their way to see the Pope? Or was that just my city (Glasgow)? And how about the IRA? Should their members have been allowed to have Mass in Long Kesh? Look a-fucking-round you. I continue to identify as Catholic despite the many offences committed by people in the name of Catholicism or protecting it's reputation. Ditto my friends who identify as Protestant.

The more moderate Muslims are subject to vilification, the more fanaticism you are going to get. The more stones and cries of 'Papist, Fenian bastards' are chucked at schoolbuses, the more middle class women in hairdressers who you overhear saying that Catholics could never afford to live in the posh bits of the city, the more resentment and anger grows. I have seen it in action and I'm frightened of what will happen if we fight hatred with hatred.

Its horrific what happened, the governments need to do more to tackle extremism, a vile minority are giving a whole religion a bad name. Tragic.

Agree but what should governments be doing?

They should do different things in different countries. There's a strong probability that one of the French brothers is an Iraqi jihadist veteran. Stopping the veterans returning to carry out bombing campaigns, I'd say, is a strong government responsibility. (Nobody else can do that.)

agentcooper, I'm sorry you had to experience that, truly.

But it is a fact that currently it is islamist extremists who are going around beheading, shooting, stabbing and murdering in all manner of other ways, like this.

I am very real and I am looking around me thanks.

I am seeing terror played out before my eyes.

"don't treat all Muslims as equal to fanatics" Do you see anyone here saying they were all in on it?

People saying Islam is the only religion which has so much violence associated with it in the modern age. Yes I've been saying all along that all the main religions cause violence, but right now it IS mostly Islam. Even the IRA is mostly a thing of the past now and that was political wasn't it.

If you want to start a thread about the Catholic Church being a problem too we can talk about how the 'nice' Catholics helped keep the child abuse going with their support and constant denial that decent Christians could do such a thing and how it was 'all anti-catholic persecution - they wouldn't say that about Muslims!'. I seem to remember a lot of "well if they did they were not really Catholic" too.

But right now we're talking about Islam.

just because someone identifies as a Muslim, it doesn't mean they follow the Qu'ran by rote and don't question aspects of their faith

You mean ex-muslims? We've been told that the Koran is the perfect word of god and no one can add or subtract a single word from it, but if Muslims are now admitting it might be written by man and bits of it may be bullshit then they could really help a lot by telling people that.