islamist extremists strike in france

[KareninsGirl]

My thoughts are with the victims of the latest barbaric act by Islamic extremists.

The world needs to wake up and defend itself.

RIP those who died and prayers for those critically injured.

at French magazine office www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883

suspects located - afp

policewoman shot dead thus morning in Paris.

I think tolerance in Bosnia/Yugoslavia had more to do with Marshall Tito than with multiculturalism.

hundreds of heavily kitted soldiers / Police grouping up in Paris for large operation.

WestAug, has a redefinition of w/culture actually been proposed/ (not that it doesn't happen all the time in terms of progress). Shooting people isn't a proposition of culture change any more than assassinating the Arch Duke was.

Some relevant statistics here from the "most comprehensive survey to date of Muslim opinion in Britain." CBS News

"When asked, "Is Britain my country or their country?" only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, "Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws."

Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year's Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it. "

Seeking to end Western society is fine, if done from outside. The problem is with people living in and benefiting from w/s and attempting to end it both at the same time.

WetAugust, I haven't agreed with many of your posts on this thread but I think you make a good point in your post of 10:32.

We need to wake up to the fact that what have traditionally called 'our culture' is being challenged

So many Muslims on TV trying to claim that Muslims are a shoe rate race. Many very stupid news presenters are not questioning this nonsense.

We have been pooling along with multiculturalism for decades but we are now at a cross roads and need to decide whether we are going to say our traditional British culture is non negotiable OR we cave in and accept that there are subjects that we cannot express free comment about under quite literal fear of death

I am sick to death of Muslims claiming they are victims. they are not. They are humans with daft medieval beliefs that are incompatible with western freedom of expression The sooner we are honest with ourselves about that, the better

ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

I tried to see the poll described in the CBS news link , the above link gives a more thorough explanation of the results . Unable to find original full poll though .

The biggest clash in muslim culture is between sunnis and shiite. It's much, much bigger than between muslim vs USA & Co. Our biggest danger in the w is that a noticeable few believe that it's permissible to shoot/stab anybody that you disagree with (much as in Ireland, until recently.) It makes for some mangled and deeply unpleasant decades. But, it doesn't alter the culture.

A lot of Muslims in Europe also think of themselves as 'just a muslim' , in a similar way that a lot of people will say C of E if asked what their religion is , most of whom will not have read the bible and only go near a church for weddings or to the hall next door for pilates .

My DH is a Shia Muslim by birth and culture, but non-practising. There is a possibility that I will convert to Islam so that our marriage is recognised in his country of birth. It's academic really since we are both atheists. So I am far from FN territory! But...

I agree with WetAugust and the comments unthread. Promoting tolerance has led to a situation where we uphold and defend intolerant views. There are certain freedoms in Europe that have evolved over centuries - equality before the law, freedom of speech, women's rights. Surely any ideology or religion that does not embrace these freedoms is not deserving of protection? In other words, we should not tolerate the intolerant.

Yes. We keep forgetting that the price for this perceived insult to Islam has been the murder if 12 people. Absolutely nothing justifies that. Even if we accepted that Muslims are the special case that should be exempt from parody etc (which I briefly sector accept) it still does not give them the tight yo kill you because you think differently

Perhaps we need to state these Brutish Values that Cameron bangs on about and tell those who disagree with them to fuck off and live somewhere else if they cannot live under British values

We should not tolerate the intolerant

^^ this

agree with this:

"Promoting tolerance has led to a situation where we uphold and defend intolerant views."

Is there a difference between tolerating Abu Hamza and not knowing how to legally expel him? I'm not sure that we do tolerate intolerance. But, I think often we don't know precisely what to do about it.

We agonise rather than act. But, perhaps, in a civilised society, that's correct. (Hasty actors frequently get things wrong.)

The main message for the terrorists should be, as it is at the moment, that they can kill people but they can't shut them up, nor humour, nor criticism of Islam and of muslims.

Lweji

Except for the BBC which is bending over backwards to find anything to excuse this violence. Sickening

Really? (not in the UK)

What we need is an alliance of the tolerant - of all faiths and none - versus the intolerant.
Definitely this.

Dora, I can think of lots of examples. Turning a blind eye to Muslim girls dropping out of school in their teens for marriage? Cosying up to Saudi while the Grand Mufti says there should be no minimum age for female marriage? Doncaster paedophile gangs? You may be right and it is just our uncertainty or inaction when dealing with medieval views that are so different from our own. However, this state sanctioned acceptance is insidious and honestly worries me more than violent extremism.

My DH went through similar as a child during the Islamic Revolution in Iran. His family suffered brutal treatment under Khomeini's regime because they were perceived as having "Western" tendencies. Close relatives went into hiding. He is surprisingly intolerant of Abu Hamza and the like! But he also laughs at the idea of extremism being a "new" thing - for most Middle Easterners, it's depressingly familiar.

Lweji
Yes, BBC trying very hard to be 'non-judgemental'. None of the UK newspapers followed the German and Belgian press that reprinted the CH cartoons as a Mark if soldiarity.

You'll never get people to agree on tolerance because you will never get Muslim agreement that their religion can be held up yo any scrutiny - comedic or otherwise. So we are forced to tolerate the intolerant.

It's actually too late to have this argument now. If we even trues to fade fine British values we would have some HR lawyer jumping up and down demanding concessions for every specific group. We should be very grateful to people like Rowan Atkinson who campaigned against religious believes being given the same anti discrimination protection as race, disability etc. And we must resist this attempt to brainwash us into accepting that Muslims are a separate race they are not

I agree Dora -- is there really a huge tolerance for intolerance? Do you have loads of Brits saying, sure, let's go ahead and have that sharia law put in place? Is everyone saying, sure go ahead with your FGM and honour killings? I don't think so.

But as you say, what do you DO about it? I actually agree that a lot more could be done, for example FGM should be illegal and anyone caught practicing repeatedly should be deported if not a citizen. But that doesn't mean becoming intolerant of whole communities. We should focus on the acts that people commit, not the people themselves.

It's actually an interesting point whether the UK should have a US-style bill of rights. I'm originally from the States and I think this would be a good idea. The First Amendment is a huge part of American culture, very deeply believed in, and offers important legal protections not just for the majority culture but for minorities too. This would be important because you need that reciprocity for social peace if it's just about the majority imposing its will on minorities, you will always have tensions (rightly or wrongly).

The American style is helpful because if you tell people they shouldn't do something because it's against British values, there is a whole contested discussion about what is British and how values change over time. Whereas in the US you can just say, that's unconstitutional. But at the same time, people will know that if someone tries to do something intolerant to them, it will also be unconstitutional. You can't have sharia law but at the same time you can't have fundamentalist Christians coming into your schools and forcing your children to go to mass or whatever.