islamist extremists strike in france

[KareninsGirl]

My thoughts are with the victims of the latest barbaric act by Islamic extremists.

The world needs to wake up and defend itself.

RIP those who died and prayers for those critically injured.

at French magazine office www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30710883

Pontypines I think you'll find the relevant bit is where I say 'happened this frequently'.

The cases you refer to are from 2009, 2011 and 2013.

These attacks seem to be happening weekly at the moment, not every 2-3 years.

And I believe with Brevik and the woman stabbed in court there was a lot of collective handwringing done. Lapshyn was different because he had only been here for a few weeks therefore we couldn't handwring too much about how it was all our own fault and the Ukrabians didn't handwring because they don't really give a shit about racism.

I'm so disappointed with tomorrows national newspaper headlines...

Peter what would you describe killing someone for drawing a picture as then? Is it not a war on freedom?

I would never deny anyone their right to believe in fairies and unicorns either (not Santa, come to that) - but those beliefs should be personal and have no influence on the way other people live their lives. I support freedom of thought to the extent that it doesn't affect the way I choose to live. Once your personal religion seeks to change or influence my life it ceases to be a personal belief, and I reject that utterly.

Thereyou Pew has been polling on extremism in the ME for a few years now, AQ usually gets about 10-15% favourability, although more in a few countries. I don't know if they've released a new poll since ISIS' gains last year.

It's a complicated question because people may support armed resistance to oppression without necessarily liking the extremists' ideology, but the extremists are the only real resistance groups. So you might have a poll saying X percent support the struggle against Assad but that doesn't mean they all approve of AQ/ISIS.

'All religion is a delusion, and the sooner we can all have the emotional maturity to accept our mortality and stop this ridiculous and irrational reliance on an imaginary security blanket called 'faith', the better. 'Faith' is just another word for gullibility and denial of reality in the face of evidence to the contrary.'

But those religious beliefs are not just personal, they are societal because they have changed and shaped our whole culture, our traditions and even our laws. Religion has influenced the identity of our country and our holidays and our festivals etc as in Christmas for example and our moral teaching. Even though the Christian religion is on the wane, it still permeates our culture.

I just think it's important to put comments like "most muslims" in context.

I said 40% of muslims based on previous PEW studies of extremism but you mention 15% so i'll use that. There are what 1.7 billion muslims world wide?

That means 250 million Muslims support extremism. These are not small numbers.

Claig

Actually, Jesus never said "Let he who is without sin...etc". Even Christian biblical scholars acknowledge that that was a later inclusion and not part of the original text.

'That means 250 million Muslims support extremism. These are not small numbers.'

You don't seriously believe that do you? If that were the case, then there would be much more extremism than the Isis rich backer funded jihadists etc.

Dreaming if that figures is correct: there are about 2,800,000 Muslims I. The UK. If 15% of them support Al Qaeda that's 420,000 people.

420,000 people who basically would support the murder of most of their fellow countrymen and women (and children) by terrorists.

Put it another way. UKIP has 39,000 members and plenty of people seem to have their knickers in a twist about them...

caffe,

no original texts from the new testament survive. The dead sea scrolls are the oldest.

I agree with you claig and I love some of the Biblical poetry and religious references in classical literature. Doesn't make the basic premise any more true though - Greek mythology is full of glorious stories, as is Nordic mythology (etc, etc.), and the societies of those times were shaped by their beliefs (or alternatively, their beliefs were shaped by their societies). We deify what we value, we make gods from our aspirations - but there is still one logical, scientific reality which transcends all our imaginary constructs - and seeking that truth is what I think we should dedicate our efforts towards.

Wait... Sorry to be obtuse and OT but do people actually believe Mossad was behind the Twin Towers? I mean normal people who love a good conspiracy theory like me or just anti-semetic nutcases?

How on earth can anyone believe that? Even as a crackpot conspiracy theory?

'Even Christian biblical scholars acknowledge that that was a later inclusion and not part of the original text.'

Are you sure? What "scholars" are these?

You don't seriously believe that do you?

I'm not sure. I've tried to do as much of my own research into this as possible. 15% looks like an underestimate to me based on various surveys...but i suppose its the validity of the surveys that needs to be questioned.

Just because you support the principles of extremism doesn't mean your the kind of person to shoot and kill 12 journalists though.

ThereYouArePeter I sort of take your point, but find it slightly ludicrous that you are a) telling me that this thread should be about free speech and then b) telling me what I should or should not say. Did you think that through? And I will post what I like, thanks very much.

To Claig and the other clueless Christians:

I come not to abolish the law but to uphold it
All the laws will remain in place as long as the earth continues to exist

Guess who said that?

The idea that Jesus abolished any need to for his followers to adhere to the law is a fiction invented by Christians who like eating prawns and wearing clothes of mixed fibres. He never said or intimated any such thing.

But educating Christians about their own religion (which has to be done with depressing regularity on these threads) is tiresome and I won't engage further.

'We deify what we value, we make gods from our aspirations - but there is still one logical, scientific reality which transcends all our imaginary constructs - and seeking that truth is what I think we should dedicate our efforts towards.'

I disagree because it fundamentally comes down to what you believe about the world. Do you believe there is a purpose, a point, an order, a good that defeats evil, a right that defeats wrong or do you believe that it is all just an accident and has no purpose?

I believe there is a purpose and I believe that there is a right and a good and a point to it all. I believe there is a meaning, a global consciousness that has a purpose. I don't think it is pointless and that is why we have to do right and defend our values and do what is right rather than give in to extremism that destroys good.

ThereyouarePeter it probably is an under estimate because people know what it is socially acceptable to say and not to say, and also people being questioned might be suspicious of those asking the questions so they wouldn't be entirely honest.

And supporting the principles of extremism may not mean you're going to go out and kill 12 people. But if enough of the people around you believe I. The same values it certainly makes it more likely that you are creating the type of environments and influences which make it much more likely someone amongst you WILL go and nurder 12 people.

'I come not to abolish the law but to uphold it'

And what was that law? What did it consist of?

Le Pen defending the integrationist model is a contradiction in terms.

The integrationist model is based on the idea that those who are citizens of the French republic are part of a nation which has adopted fundamental principles of tolerance and equality.

In that model, religious beliefs are private and personal; they have no public place in a secular republic, but they must be allowed to exist and can express themselves insofar as they do not contradict the principles mentioned above.

The integrationist model has its limits in a world where those principles are hard to uphold and where immigrants and their children do not always believe in them and, for many, justifiably do not feel that they are applied to them much of the time.

But Marine Le Pen is insulting people's intelligence (not for the first time) if she expects anyone to believe she is in favour of such a model. She favours a model which cherry picks certain aspects of those principles (such as a strong central state implementing a homogenous educational and cultural provision throughout the country) but not others (equality and tolerance, for instance).
It is those latter ideals that the cartoonists died for, and it will be a cruel irony if the only outcome of their deaths is a rise in extremist FN votes.

Life is far from an accident - it's an inevitable result of the laws of physics (and, consequently, biology and evolution), but the concept of a purpose is one I struggle with - just because we look for a purpose doesn't mean there is one. I'm not sure what purpose would be a satisfying one - the Christian god seems to say that the purpose is to glorify him - to tell him how damn wonderful he is for making us so we can...well, glorify him. Doesn't make much sense to me!

I have issues with those who assert that their version of god is THE god, discounting the beliefs of others as delusion, although those others may be so convinced that their god is the right one that they're prepared to blow themselves up (and kill other people) for his glory. Then the moderates step in to say that everyone is taking it a bit too far, and we should ignore those passages in various sacred texts that condone murder and torture, slavery and so on as outdated - like god didn't really mean that, he was only pandering to the spirit of the times, and now we know better. Cherry picking, illogical, denying the very basis of the religion you say you adhere to because it doesn't fit with the standards of the society you find yourself living in. Hypocrisy or worse. It's 1984 doublethink in action.

The youngest lad has handed himself in - bbc

Le Pen believes in defending French values and teaching French values, just as Cameron and the modernisers and the progressives are now in favour of teaching British values. Le Pen wants to keep French traditions, she is conservative in that sense. The reason is that those values are shared by the majority and it is an issue of culture and identity. Le Pen wishes to teach those values in order to integrate all citizens rather than to divide and segregate them by teaching separate values.

The recent "nativity play" issue shows how these cultural, identity values are a key part of cultural identity and how the majority wishes to keep those traditions, in spite of the revolutionary French tradition which enforced secularism etc.

It has been called the nativity war. A French court’s ban on a nativity scene in a town hall in order to preserve France’s secular traditions has triggered a fierce backlash.

“Why not ban Christmas and the public holidays that go with it?” thundered Le Parisien on Sunday. Its headline read: “Spare us a nativity war.” According to the newspaper, 86% of more than 12,000 readers surveyed were in favour of keeping nativity scenes in public places.
...
Nadine Morano, an outspoken deputy with the centre-right UMP party, said “secularism must not kill our country, our roots and our traditions.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/07/nativity-scene-ban-france-court-la-roche-sur-yon

Traditions and identity and culture are important as the modernisers and progressives have lately come to realise, because they provide a cohesion and integration.

'Life is far from an accident '

But isn't the whole Darwinian evolutionary theory just a random chance accident starting from an amoeba etc.?

I think it is no accident, and that there is a purpose but none of us understands what it is. Some have faith that there is a purpose and that God knows it and intends it.

'It's 1984 doublethink in action.'

I fail to see what it has to do with New Labour policy.

Claig I'll be back in the morning but am now in bed on the tablet so would struggle to be coherent!