Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

Why don't Muslim men have to wear a veil over their faces? Because the Muslim faith was invented by misogynistic males, creating a patriachal God figure and enforcing rules in the name of faith that subjagated women.

This also happened in the Christain faith as well...all the sin of the world was born from woman according to the bible. I'm no expert but probably all religions created during this patriachal time bound up rules that controlled women. Women were property to be owned by their father and sold to their husband and then owned by him.

History was controlled by men and their rules and the veil offends me as a modern woman just because it is symbolic of those outdated patriachal methods of control.

MP, I know there are extremist in all religions and I'm just as vocal about them.

My dh is doing the school run figroll.
The deal was that I got on with the DIY but I can't quite tear myself away just yet.

I totally agree with you Roo. I have studied Islam and believe me, I would rather die than be a Muslim. Women are second class compared to men and those who deny that, need to take their blinkers off.

I'd like to see some wise words from Stitch on this thread.

I live in East London/Essex and I have noticed an increase in veil wearers recently. Now either more are moving in to the area or woman are choosing to wear it more. My dd's friend's mum has chosen to wear her veil as a demonstration against the Forest Gate fiaso for instance. My children have been scared by mulsim woman completely covered in black in Tesco and not because of the media - they are 3 and 5 yo. I agree with JS and don't consider myself racist for doing so. As regards the IRA catholic mothers banded together and marched against the IRA calling for peace.

I like Jack Straw and don't think he's racist. I'm not very knowledgeable about the reasons women might choose a full veil but I don't think it is rude to ask if taking it off is a possibility. Jack Straw said on the radio snippet I heard that he always had a female member of his staff present and that it was definitely a request rather than a condition of his help being offered.

None of the muslim women I know wear a full veil. I did used to have an extremely lovely neighbour who wore one when outside or when men who were not family members were present but she was the only member of her family to do so- all the other adult females in her family just wore the hijab- and that really puzzled me. We had tea togther a couple of times and she was able to take the veil off as no men were present and she was really stunningly attractive- one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen. I must admit I wondered whether that was a reason for either herself or her husband (more worryingly?) choosing to insist on it. We weren't really close enough to discuss her reasons though. Just friendly polite neighbours.

Speedymama - you speak so much sense, I totally agree with you. I too would hate to be a muslim, the women are definatley inferior to the men, and in this day and age that sticks in my throat somewhat. We know that hundreds of muslim women are beaten and sometimes murdered for acting too westernised or fleeing arranged marriages. It goes on and it is so wrong, especially when hiding behind a religion. I really feel alot of these women are opressed and are just too damn scared to say otherwise.

Why can the men wear what they want yet these women are forced to cover themselves completely? What are these people scared of if they allow their women to go out into the big wide world, smile at poeple, get jobs and flourish. Why would that be so bad?

I just don't get it, and feel these women need a revolution.

Not read thread, but would like to give my twopennth worth!
I think Jack straw is spot on with his comments. If you want to live in our country then be prepared to adhere to "some" of our ways. If we go to Muslim countries we have to adapt our behaviour, so then so should they.
Rant over......

Not read thread, but would like to give my twopennth worth!
I think Jack straw is spot on with his comments. If you want to live in our country then be prepared to adhere to "some" of our ways. If we go to Muslim countries we have to adapt our behaviour, so then so should they.
Rant over......

on the scared of veiled wearers issue, I believe my children would be scared by close contact with a veil wearer. for no other reason than it looks different. they are wary of anyone in what looks like a costume. no offence to habib? wearers but to a small child it will look like a costume. we saw spot the dog once (rather a person in a large spot costume) they were terrified. they are also not sure about clowns. it is innocence at this stage rather than ignorance.

I'm muslim, an english convert. I wear hijab (scarf over head and neck and chest with face showing). I'm not sure what to think atm about js as the reports i hasve read contradict each other and i would like to read the article he himself wrote.
However i am not oppressed i wore hijab when i was single before i knew my husband. I am the only muslim in my family, so there were no outside pressures. There prroably are oppressed and abused muslim women just as there are in any other social group but not all muslim women are.

he doesn't ask women to remove the hejab, just the ull face covering. He made that quite clear on the radio 4 interview this morning.

He also said that if a woman refuses, he accepts that,

speedymama says: "What people in the West need to wake up to is that Islam means submission. There are a lot of Muslims who want the West to submit to their will as well as their way of life and little by little they are endeavouring to usurp Western culture, traditions etc with their own whilst the West allows this because they are paralysed through fear of being accused of racism."

Yes, the word Islam does mean "submission", to the will of Allah who created us, gave us life and told us how to live. Look I am a Muslim, I have no problem with what Jack Straw asks (although I do wonder about why he said it now) but I do have a problem when people who fail to distinguish between the followers of a religion (who may have lost the plot for cultural reasons), and the teachings of the religion itself, and therefore spread lies and misconceptions to tarnish the image of that religion.

I really do not believe that Muslims have an agenda to force their beliefs on everyone, believe me we are not that organised or influential.

"Britons needs to wake up and reclaim their country. My mother is from Jamaica and says that it is time that the Muslims who do not want to integrate go and live in a Muslim country."

There are a lot of Muslims who have integrated. Most of my Muslim friends and relatives work as doctors, teachers, in the City, in IT, as lecturers, they do voluntary work, social work etc. I would say most of us are integrated.

Lack of integration by some in many cases is more down to cultural than religious reasons.

I understand that some people are frightened/unnerved by the full-face covering. But these women are not breaking any laws. As equal British citizens they enjoy equal rights with regard to following their religion.

saadia, they are not breaking any laws, and neither is Jack Straw if he asked them to remove a full face veil. Note asks them, and respects it if they say no.

Are we saying that muslim vlaues can never be questioned?

When I went to Egypt I was careful to dress in a way that respeced the host country. It didn't worry me. Why should we in the UK not be able to ask the same? as long as there is an caveat that the answer no would be respected?

I do not think that Jack Straw has the right to extend his personal discomfort with the veil into a generalised and politicised request.

In other words, I agree with Batters.

If I were meeting a man and he asked me to take some of my clothes off, I'd be outraged.

mb as I said I have no problem with what JS asks, and I have no problem with discussing/questioning things.

Yes, when Europeans visit Muslim countries they do respect the traditions there. But these women are not visiting, they live here. The way I see it one of the wonderful things about the UK is that when they give someone citizenship the treat that person as an equal, whose beliefs are just as valid as anyone else's and who has freedom of worship under the law.

I can see from this thread that many people believe this is to the detriment of British culture and British ways.

But I don't know what the answer is - to outlaw the veil perhaps?

figroll - if you don't believe extreme hate exists in this country, talk to the Bangladeshi families in Tower Hamlets whi keep buckets of water under the letterbox at night because of the number of their neighbours who have had burning rags pushed through. And maybe you missed the whole murder of Stephen Lawrence...and others?

I think it is true that a covered face is a barrier to communication - and that, whatever you think of it, is the point of a full veil anyway. I saw a programme where highly intellectual and politicised muslim women were wearing hijab as a political statement to ally themselves as muslims in what they perceived as a racist and anti-islamist environment. But one of those women said that shhe removed her face covering during her work as a counsellor because of it's barrier to communication.

If I were meeting a man, and he asked me to take some of my clothes off, I'd be outraged too. Unless I happened to be wearing a balaclava, or a bag over my head, in which case I'd be pretty unsurprised.

lilymolly your proposterous assumption that "if you come to our contry prepare to "adhere" to our ways"
outrageous
I would suspect that a very large proportion of muslim women in this country (wearing the jilbab or whatever version of traditional dress they choose) are actually ENGLISH
They are in THEIR country - it as as much theirs as it it yours and mine.
It is exactly this separatism that is so divisive.

it may be traditional dress but they are wearing blue jeans and trainers underneath!

does this mean they can't be seen in western clothes in public only?

genuine question.

"If I were meeting a man and he asked me to take some of my clothes off, I'd be outraged"

so would I, but he's asking her to remove her veil, brides do it every weekend without taking offence.

but why are women suddenly wearing the full veil now?

Blu I don't think figroll is suggesting there's no extreme hatred in this country. Surely this exists in every culture but that doesn't mean the rest of us, who aren't extreme and hateful should be made to feel we can't discuss, as a community, our feelings about each other.

I want to know if I'm being unwittingly anti-social or offending anyone so that I can choose whether or not to adjust my behaviour according to the needs of those around me.

I was brought up to despise racism. I spent decades telling myself off for feeling a bit scared or wary of people hiding in black robes terrified that a racist lurked within me.

Now my kids tell me they're scared when they see these women in the part. I am not going to start telling my kids of or telling them they're wrong to feel what they're feeling. Of course it should be discussed and of course those people choosing to wear such extreme outfits should be asked to think about the effect it has on others.

I feel I've been asked often enough now to think about people's rights to express their strongly held religeous or cultural beliefs. I've thought about it all my life. I'd now like to see people thinking about mine and my children's rights.

I remember turning up for the One O'clock club in Brockwell Park one day only to be told, 'No. This is Muslim day' and then watched the women in Niqabs trooping in while I played in the park in the cold. Barred.

How am I supposed to get to know these women? How can I not feel outraged at being barred from my local M&T club? Why is this different from any other sort of discrimination?

arghh! they are playing at "more Moslem than you" in my opinion. A game that has affected my family, and with which I have no patience.

I personally dislike the full veil because it stops women from leading a full life, eg working in many jobs, because it is a significant drawback in most jobs, to have your face covered. The veil is usually a status symbol that shows that a woman doesnt have to go out to work, because if she did she'd have to take it off pdq.

The Koran says you have to cover certain part of your body - not that you have to dress up like b**y Darth Vadar.