Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

saadia, but if I went to live full time in, say Saudi, I would be *expected to adhere to local norms. I would not be able to wear a crucifix publicaly, or practice Christianity in a public way.

And there are mulims who have been offecnded by what JS has said.

I don't think that wearing the full veil is a detriment to indigenous UK culture (for want of a better descriptor), but I would by lying if I said I wouldn't find it a detriment to communication. I also find some muslims reactions (ie that this cannot even be asked, respectfuly with full acceptanve of a refusal) rather worrying. In fact , very worrying.

Message withdrawn

cocopop LMAO at your Darth Vader comment!

but mb the law in Saudi Arabia is very particular and if someone wanted to re-locate there they would know that and then they would have to consider whether they could live in such a place. Saudi Arabia does not give citizenship easily to foreigners.

But if someone is British, of whatever race or religion or origin, they have certain protections under the law and the law does not ask them to renounce their ways and adhere to the ways of the indigenous people.

What people here are saying is that they are sick of having to accommodate Muslim sensibilities. But Muslims also do accommodate things they don't like.

I was very lucky that my employer was very enlightened. While all employees were given bottles of wine, I was always given something else and I really appreciated this thoughtfulness. But some of friends were not so lucky. Many times they had to go and sit in pubs with drunken colleagues in order to "fit in".

Hmmm,lots of good points here.
I love it that in Turkey,omen are expected to remove headscarves in public buildings.

Now if only bollock scratching and rearranging was similarly vetoed,I'd be a happy bunny.

Yes Speedy,that case of the girls burning to death in SA (here my parents have lived for 18 years) sums it up.

But I do think that there cames a point where we do have a right to question some things. And some Muslims, who are British, are telling other british people that they cannot even polity question, and i consider this my right.

saadia your friends didn't have to go to pubs to fit in. I'm not a Muslim but just don't like alcohol and pub culture. I remember well the pressure to fit in but I don't like pubs so I didn't go.

Also I'm not 'sick of having to accomodate Muslim sensibilities'. Rather I'm weary of having to accomodate so many sensibilities at the expense of my own and those of my children.

yes, I think mb and spidermama have their fingers on it.
after that Pope storm in a tea cup a few weeks ago, I kept reading over and over again - people should stop bashing Islam, people should respect Islam, if people say things against Islam they will have to face the consequences.
well that makes my blood turn cold, actually.
freedom of speech and freedom to criticise any religion/culture/set of rules/whatever is more than a "sensibility" - it is a fundamental cornerstone of a civilised culture. it has taken hundreds of years of struggle to get here and we piss it away at our peril.
no one religion or culture has the right to require freedom from criticism at the expense of freedom of speech.

I think in a multi-cultural society everyone has to accommodate other peoples feelings to some extent. I understand that some people find the veil divisive and AFAIConcerned they are free to say that.

which is where you an I agre, which is great

I do have very real concern about the numbers of muslims who would seem to differ from our viewpoint. This is a small undercurrent of attitudes that seem to view 'understanding' as flowing in one direction only. To my mind there people do nothing to help integration and undersatnding.

Which is part of what JS was talking about.

I love the fact that the UK is multi cultural. I love the fact that my kids get to grow up in a society that is more diverse and interetng thatthe one I grew up in in the 60s. But it has to be real multiculturalism. To my mind there should be no 'White' areas or 'Muslim' areas. So I was chilled to the bone when a Laubour Secretarty was berated for daring to enter 'A muslim area'. There can be no 'Mulsim' areas, in the same way that there can be no @white ' areas.

It has to be an even handed, two way exchange of understanding.

mb - ita about the no-go areas. That is horrifying.

the veil is divisive amongst Muslims, though.

saadia, I too hate pubs and drunkenness and I do drink. I never go on those sort of work outings - well, I just dont fit in, tough!

anyone here Salman Rushdie on Radio 2 on wed?
I think he's a knob but he did say some good stuff on this occasion,amongst it,the observation that giving in to bullies (ie pope apologising and so on) doesn't appease these people.It makes them orse-their demands become more and mpre outrageous.

moondog, your "w" is malfunctioning.

which is awful for a welsh speaker!

lol
Yes I kno .

Am at sister's place in Brighton and her kids have ripped it off!

I also think full face coverings are antisocial, divisive and mad. I am always freaked when I see women in the full veil out with their babies and children. Babies are programmed from birth to want to see their mother's face and respond to her. Your face tells a young child more than your words. I think they are absolutely horrible and a symbol of women's oppression.

I have not read the thread but IMHO it is not up to anyone else how someone else dresses

I think everyone should be free to dress as they like

Everyone is different and that is what makes the world go round

Every religion have their own dress codes and traditions of dress whether voluntary or compulsory

I don't have a problem with any of them

I know it isn't the same but some people are offended by women wearing a bra and a skirt that hardly covers her backside when they go out on Saturday night

I think we should live and let live

I know some people would call me ignorant but there you go I don't have a problem

good grief,. I couldnt believe he said it either; but comments from both 'sides' in the news have seemed to be very dignified and open...like it was just a matter of time before someone mentioned it somewhere.
I especially liked the quote of a young woman who said differences should be celebrated, not erased.
as for the idea of his that it makes a conversation fairer/easier to understand, a lot of information comes through the eyes, and he should learn to communicate with those women in the way the rest of the world does, at the end of the day, it is their choice to wear it...

moondog, I read this thread in bits and I thought your sister's kids had ripped her veil off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!not a 'w'!!!

jaffa, but if a woman is wearing the Burka, you can't even see her eyes.

Why is it wrong to say, 'I find it hard to have an open conversation with someone if I can't see their face?' That is a sociatal norm in this country. If Muslim women have the right to cover up, don't we have the right to question? (and remember he said that he always respected a 'no' )

So do I not have the right to question my collegues teaching of funimentalist creationism in school RE lessons because it is her religious belief, while my need to teach evolution is driven by science rather than a religious conviction?

Why does it all end?

Are all religious beliefs beyond reproach or question. Are all cultural norms sacrisanct?

Or isn't the ability to question (politly and respectfully) the single most important part of real multiculturalism?

sorry....where does it all end?

Is that a hypothetical colleague MB or a real one? In all the schools I've taught in, the RE teachers have been atheists. Of course, I was taught RE by a nun.....

If its so hard to communicate with someone without seeing their face, how come we have long telephone conversations? I don't think its right for any man to tell any woman how to dress. No wonder he's not foreign secretary any more.