Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

You missed a good trick there FW

And it doesn't just happen to Muslims, my dh is also teetotal

We'll sue next time it happens and let you know how it goes

You havent offended me at all saadia. I just think it illustrates the point that this is not a Muslim country, and most people here, deaf or otherwise would have to think about communicating with a veiled person, rather than just automatically communicating with them.

How do Muslim women communicate with deaf people in Muslim countries saadia?

I have no idea how people communicate with the deaf in Muslim countries, sign language and writing things down I would imagine.

You are absolutely right this is not a Muslim country but there are Muslim people here who happen to have the same rights as non-Muslim people. Perhaps those people who "would have to think about communicating with a veiled person" ought in fact to think about it if it is a problem for them.

I agree. Everyone has the same rights. Some thought from both aspects needs to go towards resolving it.

My mum is well aware, due to her disability, how it feels to be cut off from certain aspects of society, and to be in a minority and at a disadvantage (despite legislations saying that shouldnt be so). She has learnt to lipread because your everyday common person doesnt do BSL. After 50 odd years, now people expect her to do differently? She's as excited about the prospect as those who dont wish to remove their veils, I'm sure.

Anyway, this is an individual story - although the hearing issue relates to Jack Straw somewhat - i dont think its part of the greater debate as such, so I wont clog this thread up with personal stories.

Did you know that Bank Holidays are not an entitlement umless you work in the financial sector? Just thought I would share that.

"Perhaps those people who "would have to think about communicating with a veiled person" ought in fact to think about it if it is a problem for them."

Saadia that's the point - it is asking them to do some extra work and on the whole, people don't choose to take on extra work - they just avoid the effort and go and find someone else to communicate with, who is less trouble. That's not racism, just laziness at worst or can't-be-arsed-ness if laziness is too strong a term. If I want something done, I'll choose the easiest method and if one method entails some extra trouble, I'll try and bypass it.

This makes me so depressed. What are these women doing that is so unacceptable? JS asked and respected the response, end of. Nothing wrong with that at all.

A veil is just a piece of cloth, don't forget there's a human being under it, who has more in common with every one of you than any differences.

SCC - I am not lazy, I work very hard on a daily basis as do many other people. My belief that it is normal to see someones face when I am talking to them should be respected as much as the belief that I should respect religious values. If someone is walking past me down the street I dont care if the wear a veil or a pan on their head. If, however, we are supposed to be communicating or working together then I personally believe that seeing someones face is normal. There were many intelligent points by martianbishop on this subject earlier. anyone who things the views based on religion are more important than those not is themselves advocating discrimination.

See that's the bit that gets me. How many people here have had to deal with a veiled woman in a professioal capacity?? My GP is Muslim but she wears neither the face veil nor the hijaab.
Apart from friends who work in the Mosques, I've personally never met a woman in a face veil, all my experience with doctors, school teachers/students, bankers, cleaners, cooks whatever, have never been in a face veil.

Reading the thread, people appear to object to women walking down the road in a face veil because;
Deaf people would be scared/unable to communicate with these women.
Little children are scared at the sight.
It just aint British/english cultural dress.
We're damned lucky we are afforded the same rights as everyone else, because In the middle East we wouldn't get these rights (still not sure why that's relevant in England) and therefore we should bow down and allow anyone and his grandmother to tell us what to wear, and remember you're lucky you are allowed so very many freedoms here like the rest of us, when you wouldn't in the ME.....!!!
Many are also fed up with pandering to Muslims needs for so long (how, when, where), and reckon we should all go home (that'll be hackney for me then) if we don't want to all dress in British cultural dress (of course no one has yet explained what exactly British cultural dress is).
Oh yes and everyone is also dusgusted that Muslims are saying they shouldn't be questioned about things to do with their religion EXCEPT, I can't see where any muslim has said that.

Re: religious holidays, In Dubai you get a week for eid and get this....1 MONTH for Christmas!!! My dh's nephew (who's here to study and paying full fees so please don't worry about him sponging off the hardworking english), was totally appalled that a christian country would only allow two weeks for Christmas!!!

LOL, Fuzzy: "My husband was also kindly given a bottle of wine last christmas from his boss. His boss was giving all his team a bottle of wine.
And as my husband is clean shaven, doesn't run screaming at the sight of a woman/or fall on her in a fit of lust, does not tend to try and blow things up/burn effigies at the drop of a hat. I guess his boss had no idea we're muslim." good post.
And your following one.

The one month off for Chrimbo is for any Jews in the country, as the timing of Chanukah is determined by lunar calendar so moves around a bit from year to year.

(joke )

fuzzywuzzy, I deal with veiled women all the time at work. In fact there's one sitting behind me now (pauses to wave at Taslima). It can be very difficult at times to be certain we've understood each other correctly. I've developed strategies to deal with this, follow up emails or conversations in small rooms where they can take off the veil to have a private conversation with me without 'fear' of a man being present. I cope, but it can make things twice as long to do sometimes, and quite frankly, I don't have much free time during the day as it is. (apart obviously from my tea break right now ....slacker )

Have you ever sat in a meeting where half the women are veiled? It's a nightmare. You can't hear them properly, the meanings get mixed, especially when feelings are high. You just cna't get sarcasm under a veil.

I'm intrigued now to know your line of work slug

Actually I don't know anyone who gets 2 weeks off for Christmas, not as paid leave anyway. Most people only get Christmas Day and Boxing Day off, plus New Year's Day. The rest may be offered if the company is closing anyway, or they have to take it out of their annual leave.

education

Re the month off over Christmas in Dubai....just out of interest, is that because it is Christmas, or the is weather coolest at that time of year, thus making it a gopd time for a longer holiday?

We don't have long summer holidays for religious reasons, but climate.....just wondering.

MB no it's definitely for Christmas. Actually if you are ever there it's worth popping into Dubai for Christmas or New Year, they really celebrate it.

They get the summer hols off as it's too hot to do anything during August(ish).

I'm talking about schools here. I do know that my BIL got paid leave over the New Year (haven't spent Christmas in Dubai myself), BIL doesn't work in education, I think it's just a national holiday so everyone can enjoy it.

That is very interesting.

Never been to Dubai, but some of my family go regularly and love it. I don't 'do' heat very well though, so I don't know if it would suit me....or do much shopping either

I don't do heat either.... lol I was born in January in England (so no surprise there really).

Weatherwise, Dubai is gorgeous around December January and February, and In January they have the shopping festival, which is great fun. The days are hot(ish) but the evenings are really pleasant.

And now they've got an skiing complex with real snow. Haven't seen it yet, but our lecturers are using the architectural angle to go on school trips to Dubai...(I'm seriously considering enrolling on one of the courses to tag along)

My cousin goes whenever she can....Dubai has a lot to offer....all you say and a very charming local chap that she is rather fond off

Hello all, sorry havent scrolled through all the messages. I am muslim and I have no problem in there being a discussion on the wearing of the veil. I do not wear the veil or even a head scarf for that matter but my closest friend & many truly amazing women i know do. The way i see it is :-

1. This country allows ALL women the freedom to wear what they want and if a women chooses to excercise this freedom by wearing a veil/short skirt or have pink hair (like me!!) she does not need to justify herself to anybody. Some do it because they truly belive this is what Islam requires, some do it for cultural reasons, some to please thier partners. For most of these women its not easy to choose to look differant especially when in reality they are no differant to you or me. Whilst some may percieve them as being weak most people dont realise the strength it takes to wear the veil and walk down a street.
2. It is patronising to women who choose to wear the veil to assume that they have been coerced/ forced/beaten. Abused women syndrome is not restricted to muslim women!!! I use to volunteer in a women's refuge and I saw plenty of cases where women had been beaten/raped, thier childern terrorised and then they still choose to go back ( very fustrating) the majority of women i dealt with were white with white partners. Religion has nothing to do with it!!!

There is no simple answer as to why women wear the veil and it seems to me that whatever that reason it will never be good enough to those who simly do want to understand or cant. Its like trying to understand the concept of heavan when you dont belive in god.

Slug re your post at 10.57 ? this reminded me of positive action initiatives to getting people with impairments into the mainstream workplace. The veil may be an impairment to communication in some circumstances, in the same way that the speech of someone with cerebral palsy may be. No one (I?m hoping anyway) would suggest that a person with cerebral palsy not be afforded the time and patience to be understood. The same for board room meetings. Yes it might take longer, and time is money they say. But aren?t we all (especially as parents) pushing for a more relaxed work place environment, where well-being is placed just slightly above profits?

I know the veil can be removed, but I thought it was an interesting parallel.

Fuzzy re the skiing complex - very environmentally unsound you know!

Yes, but you don't choose to have cerebral palsy, which strikes me as a rather massive difference.
I agree with Salman Rushdie. Veils suck. They are a visible symbol of oppression. Why is that the more violently repressive towards women a culture is, the more they want to force women to cover their faces? And why any woman should want to do something that means she can't breath or speak freely, can never eat or drink in public, smile at her own children or kiss her baby and which renders her invisible to even people who know her, absolutely mystifies me. It is a huge barrier to every kind of communication. It makes the crinoline and corset look like really practical garb.

Actually because it makes public life so incredibly difficult, it must be a great way to keep women stuck at home.