Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

Blu FWIW I think the countries you mentioned have adopted quite a strict and extreme interpretation of Islamic Law.

Many of the intelligent/educated women in my family have become either doctors or teachers. These professions are considered respectable because you do not have to be subordinate to a man - as perhaps a secretary might be.

I think we must credit veiled women with enough intelligence to be able to think through how their decision to wear the veil might affect their career chances.

I know some posters might see red when they hear that employers in the City are starting to provide prayer rooms for Muslims, and that some of them even give free holidays for Eid-ul-Fitr.
Those in the business sector, who focus on profit above all realise that society is changing and if they want to attract bright graduates and employees from all races and religions then they need to adapt with it.

I dunno, maybe I'm seeing things too simplistically, but it seems from that recent poll that something like 40 per cent of muslims would like the UK to be run under Sharia law, and it's that which I and I think every non muslim in the country finds deeply offensive. Sorry if that seems silly, because the percentage of muslims in the UK is relatively small, and therefore the Sharia thing isn't going to happen, but it seems to me that muslims are getting further and further away from mainstream, secular thinking in the UK and the more they try to live in an outwardly alien way, the less chance there is for us all to get along. I don't have a problem with muslim women wearing the headscarf, but the veil is different.

Saadia - I completely agree with crediting women with enough intelligence to make decisions with all that that entails. But I still think there is an ing=herent contradiction between doing one thing because it keeps you seaparate from / prebvents you engaging with...and then expecting the people who encounter the results of that decision to take it all on your terms, iyswim.

The ppoint about the role / status of professional women is illuminating - i hadn't realised that distinction - thank you.

I wouldn't bat an eyelid at a hol for Eid, nor a prayer room - I think it would be most unnecessary for anyone to see red at that! Especially in a sector that is hardly short of corporate luxury!!

LOL at the kilts comment

I think Blu puts it well - how is a garment designed to stop engagement, going to promote full engagement in society?

fw, i don't think anyone's saying that women shouldn't wear the veil because someone's sensibilities might be affected. Just to be aware that they are sending a message of non-engagement (whether rightly or wrongly perceived) by wearing it.

I guess the question is how to get to a point where wearing a veil doesn't send that message. And whether it's even possible to get to that point given that there is absolutely no tradition whatsoever of face-covering in the west (unlike hair covering, which was common until quite recently and is still the norm in churches in lots of European countries - maybe that's why a hair veil doesn't provoke such discomfort.)

I'm seriously wonderig who exactly carries out these polls and who answers them. I personally have never had a questionnaire through my door asking me as to my preference about which kidn of rule I'd rather be goverend by.

Out of interest has anyone on here been asked whether they would like them evil misogynist mozlems ot takeover england and apply shariah rule with a bit of rule by the sword thrown in?? If please let me know where this occurred, how the survey was conducted, and by whom. Ta.

Men and women are supposed to behave in a business like manner when interacting with those whom they could feasibly marry. Does that make sense??
This rules out flirting and the like. Obviously I'm not saying this is how it is and this how everyone does or must behave.
It's the instruction under which muslims should behave, whether they do or not, no idea.

Bku I don't understand the point you make here:

...and then expecting the people who encounter the results of that decision to take it all on your terms, iyswim.

Are you saying that veiled women are expecting too much, but in what context?

obviously meant to say Blu

The question of the holiday for Eid is a bit difficult. I used to work in France for a firm of American solicitors whose partners were almost all Jewish. Now with France being a mainly catholic country, everyone naturally had all the Christian holidays off work. However, all the Jewish employees were also granted time off for Jewish holidays. This was not extended to the Christians (and other faiths). It did cause a lot of resentment.

So I would have no problem with a holiday for Eid for Muslims, provided it was also offered to other faiths, or the Muslims gave up Christian holidays.

I think the key is to be fair to everyone. Not for one group to be favoured over the others.

I mean that if someone wears something designed to interrupt engagement, she can't then logically complain if her colleagues complain that they are unable to engage with her...so it makes for difficulty with equality in the workplace. I am thinking of equality for the veiled woman: I don't want to see veiled women discriminated against, but by taking a decision that is intended to interrupt engagement, how can they ahieve full equality of opportunity.

Their choice, based on thier intelligence, I agree - but I don't think the other people in the equation should be blamed for creating barriers to equality.

It tangles up all my feminist instincts - but then I am aware, more acutely than ever, that there is no one single construct of feminism that suits all women (especially with regard to class / economic power), and how much my model is based on western lives, anyway.

My DH is an engineer, his firm operates every day of the year, it has to.

He has to book eid off as part of his holiday allowance, and give the required notice he'd have to give if he were booking a holiday to say Ibiza.

Dh however has always, always, very kindly accepted to do shifts for workmates when a person has been unable to get time off for Christmas. point of note Eid is oneday (or three if your going to really celebrate), the christmas holiday his colleagues want usually last through the new year. My husband has never complained and does not see it as anything to resent, a man wanting to spend time with his family during a religious holiday, as frankly he feels the exact same during eid.

Freckle - yes, there shouldn't be any difficulty with people having an allocation of religious / culturally based hols to take when they like!

Actually, scrub the whole idea! Half DPs family celebrate Eid, half his family celebrate Diwali. My family celebrate the Christian / pagan / Left Wing mayday hols - and I'm supposed to fit all this in alongside hols for half term and teachers INSET days???

Blu / Feckle / mb - re: holidays for people of a certain faith... I wonder if (perhaps quite soon) one will be asked: "Please identify your religion so that we can calculate / plan for appropriate holy days. If you have no religion, you will be given x additional days annual leave (x being the average of the four main religion's days of prayer occuring, this calendar year, on a working day)."

I postulate this because if one did not align oneself with a religion I could see how it might be easy for one to become rather miffed at the days off given to those who do IYSIWM.

fuzzy - re: leaving (partly because) of the current climate - this is an interesting point because I have exposure to some Jewish opinions / feelings on 'the current climate' and it's funny that certain Jews, as well as certain Muslims, feel so uncomfortable with 'what the future may hold' that they both are considering leaving the UK !!!

LOL Blu! Perhaps I could dither wrt my religion and claim several .

Can't you get a louder one fitted hub2dee?

Might need to, also battery was very discharged and one of the two horns doesn't make much of a noise. Oh well, time to twiddle 'n charge.

hub2dee, I see your point, but we're already there.
Certain regions have a large number of Moslem drivers in public transport, and they mostly get past that.
In some ways it's good, and cuts both ways.
All sorts of problems are caused by the mass holidaying around Christmas.
I had a Jewish employee who was so upset at being forced to take Christmas off that I took pity and told security to let him into the building.

The problem comes when you code the "right" into law.
My understanding is that bank holidays aren't a statutory right at all, and this allows an employer to maintain cover for things that must happen on certain days.
Bank holidays, are in my opinion outdated, and it would be better to give everyone an extra 8 days, and let them choose.

Fuzzywuzzy said "Men and women are supposed to behave in a business like manner when interacting with those whom they could feasibly marry. Does that make sense??
This rules out flirting and the like."

If both sexes are supposed to behave in a business-like manner why is it encumbent on only the women to enforce this in a physical manner? Does Islam mean that men are wild and uncontrollable creatures who can't help themselves? After following this thread it seems to me that the veil is saying much more about men than women.

Re holidays: when we lived in Indonesia, nominally a secular state but the vast majority of the population is Muslim, the govt gave all the holidays they could find. Thus people had time off for Xmas, Easter, Idul Fitri and Chinese New Year! Women are also entitled to two days off a month for periods.

Now I'd go along with that last one! If you were on the pill, perhaps you could save up your two days and have an extra two week holiday every 10 months .

As likely as any other person would do saadia. The point remains that my mum would be unable to communicate with someone with a veil, and further more, would be frightened/wrong-footed if they did, because she will have lost her only method of communicating with people. This isnt a good thing generally, IMO, for anyone. Like it or not, facial expressions ARE important in communicating in our society, for many reasons.

I dont know a practical way around it.

FWIW I agree with everything Blu has said.

VVV I really don't want to offend you and do understand your mother's dilemma but there are deaf people in Muslim countries too and they somehow manage to communicate with veiled women. When your mother meets strangers she must have some means of letting them know that she can't hear. That same method could be used to inform a veiled woman who would hopefully then understand.

Do I agree with it?

Well, if he requests and they refuse and he accepts that then no harm done, if he refses to see veiled constituents or deputations, then I don't agree at all.

I don't think it is racism, sim ply because the most devout veiled Muslims I have met are English born- and of course that is quite common in later converts to religiosn, a high level of devoutness.

RE Holidays, well when youa cept a contract of emplyment you know what you are getting when you sign it, and indeed a great many jobs don't offer ANY religious holidays these days- DH certainly doesn't get them. I do think a good boss would give preference on Holidays for Eid however, and perhaps if they need Christmas cover, offer a day for Eid to get round it.

There's very little thatc an't be sorted, if people work together. The Muslims I meet tend to be more than happy to work on those terms.

I think when people are determined to take offence they will find 'threats' to themselves wherever they look.

As I said it doesn't bother my husband that he works over Christmas he's happy to cover for friends who do celebrate Christmas (I get a bit annoyed that I don't get to see him for two weeks, but hey he gets paid for the work).
My husband was also kindly given a bottle of wine last christmas from his boss. His boss was giving all his team a bottle of wine.
And as my husband is clean shaven, doesn't run screaming at the sight of a woman/or fall on her in a fit of lust, does not tend to try and blow things up/burn effigies at the drop of a hat. I guess his boss had no idea we're muslim.
My husband thanked his boss and told him to have a drink on him as he doesn't drink himself. Boss was terribly embarrassed, but my husband told him not to be as it was a lovely gesture..... Later I read a thread on MN (I think), where people were getting hysterical because Muslims were suing bosses for giving them alcohol as gifts at Christmas....well there goes our chance of becoming millionaires