Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

saw a group of school girls today all wearing veils, i work in a town where a girl made the national news because she took her school to the european court of human rights because although she was allowed to wear a head scarf she wasnt allowed to wear a hijab(sorry if i spelt that wrong) she missed 2 years of school whilst this was going on.

i used to get into trouble at school for wearing make up! it is part of my culture to wear make up but i wasnt allowed

are non muslim school children therefore allowed to wear what they want to school regardles of uniform rules

or maybe if i had worn a veil to school i could have got away with the make up

and if more women are choosing to wear it then it will be that we will be seeing drs / nurses etc wearing them and personally i would not be happy being treated by someone whose face i can not see

This is just silly, who has said that these women wear the the veil every second, stopping them from kissing their children? No one, because it's rubbish.

Jack Straw asking people to remove the veil is not racist, and shows that he actually had no problem communicating with these women even when they were wearing it. If someone were to insist or expect them to remove it, then that's skirting a fine line IMHO, especially if they decided to take it as a personal insult.

It really boils down to being scared of something percived as foriegn and different, and, as in loads of these discussions, it being expressed as hostile intolerance of that 'other'.

People say it about punks and goths, but certainly not with the same hostility. It's all so loaded and horrible.

MT - lumping everybody together and generalising is the basis of prejudice. I am not a xenaphobe if you are comforatble grouping everybody together and generalising perhaps you are. I am not intolerant and scared of what is different. tolerance is a two way street. my preferences in communication are no less valid because I do not shared the same ethinic background or religion as someone else. yes I should respect that someone chooses to wear a veil and yes they should respect that I prefer to communicate face to face. It is not fear of that which is different, I am fortunate to have a varied ethnic background and I take great pride in diversity.

But tell me when you have personally ever had a problem communicating with a Muslim woman, in reality not just in principle?

I would have thought in the case of a doctor or nurse, a veil would be more hygienic than the person breathing their germs all over an open wound.

I think it's fine that there are differing views which think the veil oppresses/liberates, but for the women who wear them so long as it is their choice, well there's no oppression unless they are forced to remove their veils against their will.

Sudonim, there are rules pertaining to the way men should dress, and both men and women are instructed to lower their gaze. But for some reason, I have noticed the trend is more towards women voluntarily gravitating towards the stricter codes of Islam and the men appear to choose not to. And yes it is a choice, as my friends are all educated, second generation brits, and they choose to dress conservatively whereas their mothers by and large have not.
With regards dress, and whether this means men can't control themselves, we control what we can, and by covering and avoiding being in seclusion with a marriageable man, it's the most we can do. In an ideal world we could all walk around naked and sit alone with whomsoever we chose, doing whatever we wished without fear. But that's not the case, even in the enlightened west.

I do think revulsion of the veil is for the most part caused by the fear of the unknown. The political climate has a lot to do with it too. I know of family friends who've always worn the veil no problems, and they've been wearing them for at least the past two decades. So why the fuss now.
I think it's a lot to do with the fact that whenever one hears the word 'Terrorist', only one word comes to mind.
And that both scares and deeply saddens me. Nothing I can do is ever going to make me acceptable in english society, and there's no way I can renounce my faith, because far from it being a way of life, it is my life.

Oh fuzzywuzzy, things can change! When I came to this country in 1975 from Ireland, the only word anybody in England associated with "terrorist" was "Irish", not Muslim. Things can change.

And please remmeber that there are stacksa dn stacks and stacks of us who do not and never have an never will equate Muslims and Islam with terrorism.

out of interest, is the niqab a regional thing amongst muslims in the UK? Hadn't really thought about it before, but some of the carers at DS's nursery wear veils (not covering faces - the most cover would be head scarf tied under chin), lots of shop staff wear head scarves and I am less than a mile away from a mosque, but as mentioned before, I never see anybody in niqab. Nulnul cat mentioned Luton as a place in the South East where lots of people wear the veil, but bearing in mind that I live in a fairly diverse, highly populated area and this seems to be such a big issue, I am still a bit surprised that so few people seem to be wearing it. I think I have seen more people with extreme body piercings in the last year than people in niqab.

mt - i havent personally had a problem communication with muslim women because I dont label the people I talk to as in muslin, hindu, catholic etc. I had a friend at my wedding who wore a gorgeous red outfit complete with veil, who just happened to be a muslim. when we were laughing and talking she removed her veil. she was a good friend of mine, I did not mind her wearing her veil to my wedding - I was saddened more by the fact that her mother who had drummed it into her that she was too dark to be considered a good marriage proposition and that by by a being subservient 'muslin' women she would be able to counter this. None of the other muslim women I knew of knew of even those who were very strict wore a veil. I dont pity women who wear veils i pity women who are made to feel less that they are by those around them regardless of race or religion.

I choose not to communicate with people who are not or I cannot tell if they are open to me. it is not laziness it is based on what I consider to be mutual respect.

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Lisalisa, we remove our veils/headscarves in the house.... Otherwise it would make basic hygiene pretty difficult no???

We also remove our veils/scarves in the company of women. But there are differing views as to whether one can remove ones veil in front of a Non-Muslim woman.

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People do get frightened though don't they and I don't think that they can help that. I know that in Birmingham during the 1970s there was a lot of fear surrounding Irish people. You could say now looking back that it was a bit silly, however, many young people were killed here in the pub bombings and we had lots of bombs going off in the city centre. People just get frightened and that seems fair enough to me, it is just a pity that innocent Irish people in the 70s/Muslims now, get dragged into it. (By they way, I know that a lot of Irish people had a very hard time round these parts in the 70s, but it all dies down eventually).

By the way, when I visit relatives abroad the only word associated with us English is football hooligan - I have never been to a footbal match in my life, but the media has a lovely way of whipping up panic.

I think the argument of associating a person with muslim dress and terrorism is a non-starter especially as both 9/11 & the July bombings were done by people who at the time of the bombings appeared as westernised as those around them!! Muslims as a whole have to stop being blamed for the actions of the minority.

Its absurd to suggest that the veil affects communication with your family as u dont wear it in the home.

Out of interest how many of u have ever been in a situation in this country where u have even had to speak to a women in a veil??? So many of u have such strong views on this and I was wondering what these veiws were based on?

There's a really good article by David edgar in the Guardian today, about the way this has challenged western liberalism and found it in crisis. It clarified a lot for me - not least how complex this is!

I wonder how the non-muslim population of the U.K would react if, say a muslim Councillor asked one of his constituents to cover up her bare midriff and micro-skited thighs in order to talk to her about council services? Are we ready, like the U.S state of Virginia, to ban 'visible underwer' in the street? Are we prepared, like the Dutch, to make it illegal to talk in any language other than Dutch (in their case) in the street?

Separate point: I have listened to many pov on women covering up for many years - ran a girls Youth Theatre with 100% muslim girls, have muslim members of my extended family, many of DPs freinds are highly political muslim human rights activists 9as opposed to religious fundemantalists - which they are not). Thw women I have spoken to have been divided between 'political' professional womwn who have taken an independent decision to adopt hijab / face covering for reasons to do with establishing mulsim identity or avoidance of sexual streotyping etc, and young women who were definitely co-erced and pressurised into covering up and policed by a wide network of community members who would report on the behaviour of their various daughters out on the street. Many had secret stashes of more westernised clothes, and hated having to cover thier heads.
BUT whilst women have frequenbtly explainbed covering up as a positive move towards identity or empowerment, I have NEVER heard a muslim man who advocates covering up describe it in terms other than 'they must do this because it is decreed' and 'we want women covered up because we value women so highly that we want tp protect them, and it reflects on our honour if they show themselves'. (I also know many muslim men who would not advocate women adopting hijab or veil).

Obviously I am no great expert, but I am interested in the divergence of reasons for the veil as expressed by the men and women I have heard talking.

the KKK also cover their faces...

yes, allhallows, so do welders.

fuzzy 'there are differing views as to whether one can remove ones veil in front of a Non-Muslim woman'.

How can that not be divisive? Alienating, at odds with intergration and community feeling?

Also, like it or not, many people find the veil intimidating. It implies a submission when women here fought so hard to be free. I'm not saying it should be banned for this reason but I would like to hear a muslim woman comment on these feelings from some non muslim women. We're discussing Muslim sensibilities ad infinitum but I'd like to see my sensitivities addressed for a change.

I think most men have not given the issue of the hijaab much thought, I would imagine they go with what they're used to seeing the women in their household dress in.

My husband was completely shocked that I was taking my hijaabed self to India with him (for our first family holiday with the in-laws (shudders at memory). I had to gently explain to him, that ermmm I always wear the bloody thing, how can he have missed it-after 7 years at that???? After much debate (on his part, I wasn't listening it's my body), he accepted that the hijaab was staying (I honestly wonder sometimes whether my husband would notice if another woman was in my place, he's so unobservant at times....must ask him if he knows what colour my eyes are).

Wrt to the terorrist thing, because a muslim woman in a hijaab/veil obviously stands out as a muslimah it does make people think 'terrorist' (imo) mainly because the media is very careful to label only muslims as terorists these days. Take a look at the news, an ex-BNP member was found to have a load of chemicals and rocket launchers, which barely made a ripple in the national papers, a house with a muslim person living in it has been found to contain a barrel of potatoes (or some such), and it's suddenly a ricin plot.

I watched a very interesting American show a while back, an devout christian american man was asked to live as Muslim for thirty days with a muslim family, the outcome was very interesting, as were his experiences at the hands of non-muslim when they thought this man was a muslim.

It's going to have a lot deeper repercussions than the IRA/terorist thing IMHO, as the Muslims as teorrist/Islam as religion of evil is touted by the US, UK , France, Germany, Denmark (who did portray the spiritual leader of Islam as a terrorist) etc.
And Islam is by and large cosidered to be a strange religion followed by people a strange people.
Not so with RC/Protestants. Although I thank God I'm too young to know of the hositlity the Irish must have lived through.

As an aside; interesting fact Hamleys in Oxford street has a bomb proof basement. We were told to make our way there should there be a bomb scare when I was a sales girl.

Can I ask a question of the Muslim women posting on this thread? I have the impression (which could be completely erroneous) that DS1's friend's mum (to whom I referred earlier in this thread - wears full veil ie covering eyes too) actually finds it easier to talk to others precisely because she is wearing the veil. Does that accord with anyone else's experience, or am I just barking up the wrong tree here?

Spidermama, it's alienating and at odds with integrating with the society you live in because, you are unable/unwilling to allow for it to become the norm.
As SANA said, how many of us have had to deal with veiled women in daily life, it's all hypothetical here, bar one exception.

I don't see how it affects women rights either, did the women who campaigned for equal rights, deman that women not be allowed to wear the clothes they choose should the clothes be different from the ones they were used to??

fuzzywuzzy, I'm not trying to belittle your fears and concerns, but I was just trying to hold out some hope for a more friendly climate in the future

i do appreciate, of course, that George Bush's "War on Terror" has far greater international implications than the armed struggle in Northern Ireland did

it must be scary for you though. Muslim family round the corner from us weere under occupation by the police for 10 days in teh summer, vanloads and vanloads of them. Horrible.

Dino that's interesting, no idea tbh as I don't wear one myself....

Dino, I didn't thik you were in any way tryign to belittle my fears, I was just thinking aloud about the whole sad sorry mess to be honest.

And in a way, I think I know exactly the fear and frustration the Irish must have felt.....