Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

martian - I KNOW you will accuse me (an aethist pinko socialist ex-worshiper of Marx if ever there was one !) that I am saying religious stuff should take precedence: I know for a fact that "religion is the opiate of the masses" bla, bla, bla...

Removing your shoes reveals your toes (or socks) and is not actually against any kind of fundamental belief that you hold, either religious or otherwise. Unless you think your toes are objects of beauty which you have to hide and you therfore find the removal of your shoes offensive ? - I know I would if they smell

Removing a veil from the face is offensive to the person who has to do it (let's take religion out of it and just say it offends HER for whatever reason).

I am afraid your shoe and veil analaogy is not a good one !

But my 'norm' is to keep my shoes on, it don't matter why. My norm as a western feminist is to wear clothes that are comfortable to the climate....and these are deeply help beliefs, but I will tailor that to local customs to reduce offense.

Covering you face is seen.....even in the mellow halls of MN FFS, as ofesive by many in the UK

there are parallels

kitty - so is that why we invade their countries and torture their men and the Americans rape their women ?
Ok, so us Brits and the US are so very civilised abroad, but everyone else acts like animals when they get here ! PLEASE give me a break !

Let's just shake hands and say cheers, martian ! I think we may be living in slightly different realities of life

Yellowrose I don't understand what that has to do with the topic , not being flipant, just thick .

quite

kitty - I would never ever dream of accusing anyone here being thick

martian - I think you are asking all women in the world to become or behave LIKE a western feminist living in th UK. But it just don't work that way, people have their own beliefs about clothing (as they do about politics) and that is how it will always be.

Hey, I may be a feminist, but I am also a realist, I don't wear rose-tinted glasses (not anymore I now wear very dark Dolce & Gabbana)!

sheesh. No I'm not saying that.

In fact I have not said that several times.

What I am saying is that while they have the right to dress how they wish, we have the right to question how they dress, without being accused of racism. Questioned, not dictated to, with the understanding that they are free to say no.

That while they have the right to dress how they wish, how they are dressing is disturbing to the local custom, and they should understand this, even if they do not comply with it. In the same way that I could dress how I liked in Egypt, but I had to know that people would view ime in a particular way if I did.

I don't think that any presumptions based on dress are right but they are real. So I am being realistic!

real in term of really happen, ie peopledo make assumptions. Not that they are the right assumptions.

Mb you are absolutely right in what you have just said.

Mb do you really equate being asked to remove your shoes upon entering a mosque or muslim persons house to being asked to remove a veil???

As I've said several times before, a muslim worships in the house and our worship consists of gettign down o nthe floor and prostrating, we put our foreheads and nose on the floor. Can you see the logic behind asking guests to remove their shoes in this instance??

It's not the requesting that's worrying me, it's the growing assertion that the veil should not be allowed because; the wearers are oppressed, going against british cultural norms etc which is beginign to frankly frighten me.
Where does this stop??? I'm sure the woemn who wear the veil kwo by now that they will be met with hostility but they choose to follow their faith and emulate the mothers of the believers. ie the daughters and wives of the Prophet (pbuh).

Fuzzy, I mean this with all respect. My behaviour changes when I am with pepople from different cultures. I do this out of respect for them, and their cultures.

But I honestly feel this, right to the centre of my being, just cause a person has a set of religious views, it doesn't make them more imprtant than my non-religious views.

I'm nice to people, I try to to be kind and respectful.....because I think that is the right thing to do, not dictated by god or religion. And these views are every bit as important to me, as your views are to you! We are equal!

But I will not automatical subsume my views to others simply because their views are led by religion and mine are not. Because to do so would mean that I am not your equal, simply because my parterns of behaviour are dictated by me.

I feel that I have every right to dess however I please, but I would tailor that right so as not to offend you. But do I think that right is important? Yes. Do I feel it is as important to me as a muslim womans right to wear a veil.....yes I do.

Or other wise you are saying your rights are more important than mine, because you are muslim and I am agnostic. And I don't think that is so.

I think we are euqal and Both need to consider the rights and customs of each other.

fuzzywuzzy I know what you mean by the veil business starting to get frightening. I was at a family gathering yesterday and we were all talking about an exit plan if things here became really intolerant.

Realise that my typos were worse than ever

My feelings and moral values are every bit as real to me, and as important to me as those of an observant Muslim, or Jew or Christian, Buddist, or Athiest.

I feel women should be able to wear what they like, where they like, with no contraints. I beleave this to the centre of my being! It is every bit as important to my life, as your faith is to yours. But I will tailor my behavior so as not to offend. And it does irritate me that even asking someone to consider doing the same, just asking, with the provisor that a 'No' would be accepted with no problems, raises the specter of racism.

It isn't racist if you ask me to take off my shoes in a mosque, or dress approprialty in a muslim country. It isn't racist to ask a woman if she can take off her veil in this country. Ask, not command! Mutual respect is the key....but it really does have to be mutual.

Saadia, we are hopefully leaving.

If MN is anytihg ot go by, things are going to get a lot worse for practicing muslims here.

Can I ask please, who exactly objected to being requested to remove the veil??? Who said nobody can question a muslim person???

All that I've read has pointed towards calm rational muslims saying perhaps some women who do wear the veil should be bought together and the issue discussed. That it is an Islamic tenet and many muslims do wear it just as more don't.
And with due respect, I don't think a non-muslim is in any position to debate the islamic validity of the veil or not.

ironicaly the person who has most vociferously argued that they should even be asked is Yellowrose, a self confessed athiest!

As I posted very early on in the thread the head of the Muslim council posted a very dignified and mature, and sane response (ie if you can ,do) and also said he should be lauded for it.

Yellowroses has only come to the debate relatively recently. There are posts much earlier on which say the posters are sick of being told not to question muslims..... I'm wodering which muslim/group of muslims has demanded that they not be questioned when practicing their religion.

Because thus far I cannot see where any muslim person has said such a thing.

Fuzzy, don't think it is about the validity of the veil it is about it causing problems to westeners whose culture does NOT find it acceptable.

you're leaving fuzzywuzzy?

Yes I agree some of the view expressed here have been really quite offensive. And it doesn't take much for people to get nasty. I'm sure Bosnian Muslims would never have thought they would have to endure what they did.

I don't think that I have ever said 'sick of' or anything that even remotly implied that I consider Muslims to be anything other than my equal....have I? Or ever said that Muslim women should do anything? have I?

You asked me if my views meant as much to me as your religious one, and yes they do. Does that surprise you? honest question btw

Fuzzy, you say 'I wear it because it was prescribed by God. ' OK why has God Prescribed it and why do some Muslim Women not feel the same need. I hope you don't mind me being direct but it's not often you get a chance to be direct with people in RL.

Oh hgey MB I wasn't implyig you said suych a thing. You're one of the few mners I really respect as it happens, as you appear to keep an open mind in things such as these.

I am seriously wondering, thoguh have a group of 'beardy weirdies' come forward and demanded they not be questioned at all on their actions????

Drosophilia, it is because with what intentions another person looks at someone (doens't necessarily have to be a man you know), the hijaab, affords a person the choice of what to reveal to whom.

I've always maitained in the hiijaab debate amongst friends, that no matter what argument you put forward there will be a counter argument for it. A friend (revert), ocne said that she put o nthe hijaab, so others know she is muslim so she won't have to worry about men tryin g to pick her up, because they'll no she's off bounds due to her religion..... I was chatted up in tescos, in complete hijaab and two toddlers i tow a few weeks prior to that particular argument (or perhaps I just live somewhere where the guys are desperate??).

Saadia, yes we're hopefully inshallah leavign and very soon. This veil thing is the icing on the cake really.

I meant one does not know what the intentions of another person is.

some muslims have said that it shouldm't even be questioned though. And that is the problem. There are hard liners on either side. On one the'This is my religion and you must not question it, ever, ever, ever, or death to you' and on the other they 'You must be as we are, or bugger off back to where you come from, or we will kill you' And to my mind they are both idiots! And arsehole and bigots.