Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

It was a request not an order

when people say that he has no right to ask her to uncover her face because of her religious beliefs implies that those beliefs are the most important thing. It is reasonable to see someones face when you are communicating for many people non verbal communication is often key part of interacting with others.

It is absurd to speak about JS's desire for human rights, when the govt. he represents and supports is doing a very good job of contravening so much of the human rights declaration.

I love the way people takes things out of political context !

Sorry, this discussion is a merry go round of facial expressions ! I am out of here !

magic - it is about justice, fairness and being seen to be even handed. I don't give a toss about the religious issues.

YR, when someone asked why asking a Fathers for Justice guy to remove his outfit ghastly thought!) isn't offensive, you said, that wearing a super hero costume wasn't a religious observance. You seemed to infer that a religious* objection has to be taken more seriously than a non religious one.

people do( what ever yuo may think about it) have objections to covered faces in the UK. This is our cultural stance. Covering faces may be a reliogious or a cultural stance. Surly withing a multicultural society both these view points can be discussed and challenged. Or is the 'Indigenous' culture always bound to give way? And if that is the case, where do we draw the line. Do we allow Sharia law? Recognise poligamy, Recognise Jewish law? Allow sky burials?

yr = i only picked on the issue of human rights from an earlier post. it always amazes me how one minute we are talking about preference and the next it is human rights. it likes 0-60 in 4 seconds - imo its crazy. i have no strong views on js - I just think that it is reasonable to voice a reasonable request in a reponsible way to someone who has different views than yourself. that person then has the right to say yes or no. It is called civilised communications.

And I think that we've already established that the Muslim Council have confirmed that wearing the veil is not a religious requirement, so it then becomes a personal preference. So why should greater allowance be given to someone who chooses to wear the veil, knowing full well that it flies in the face of the indigenous culture of displaying your face?

To Yellowrose and others re: Jewish women covering up ... IMO you can't really compare Jews to Muslims on this issue, because in Judaism the dress code imposed on men is FAR more restrictive, identifiable and probably uncomfortable than that required by women. Orthodox Jewish women just wear long skirts/dresses and long sleeves and therefore don't look especially different to other people, most of whom probably wouldn't realise they were Jewish if they weren't particularly aware about it. Whereas in Islam, the men just wear normal jeans/trousers or whatever while their wives are completely covered up. I know some men choose to wear full robes and that makes more sense to me if their female relatives are obliged to do the same.

"But Xenia - the bloke in the batman suit - it is not inherent to his religious belief to wear a batman suit is it ? So you argument fails on this important point."
Coming a bit late on this....I accept Islam does not require face covering but some people choose to believe and want that. So it's a belief rather than a publicity stunt. Some muslim women would not be allowed in his surgery because they're not allowed out of the house or only with a man. So if I joined a funny cult which required me to cover my face it would be the same.

Should a religious observance be taken as more important than another kind? We should be respectful of all people. If he'd asked them to strip naked or required Sikhs or Jews or nuns to remove their head gear I would say that was not respectful of their religion. If he berated me for wearing a short shirt to his surgery I would also say that was very rude. But asking them to remove their veil so he can speak to them whilst not forcing them to do so is fine. It's interfering with the conversation. It's like when someone with screaming children goes for an important appointment. The doctor/MP etc might rightly having first tried to ignore it, suggest nicely that perhaps you could shut the little so and so up so he can actually have a proper conversation with you.

Apart from the batman costume and motorcycle hat I can't think of anything else you'd cover your face with. A hoodie is not different from a headscarf so that won't do.

To Yellowrose and others re: Jewish women covering up ... IMO you can't really compare Jews to Muslims on this issue, because in Judaism the dress code imposed on men is FAR more restrictive, identifiable and probably uncomfortable than that required by women. Orthodox Jewish women just wear long skirts/dresses and long sleeves and therefore don't look especially different to other people, most of whom probably wouldn't realise they were Jewish if they weren't particularly aware about it. Whereas in Islam, the men just wear normal jeans/trousers or whatever while their wives are completely covered up. I know some men choose to wear full robes and that makes more sense to me if their female relatives are obliged to do the same.

Some orthodist Jewish women wear wigs and hats

Yes, but wigs don't cover your face.

Oh yes sorry, I realise that, I just thought I would post it

Haven't read the whole thread though

Yes but the wigs aren't wigs as you'd imagine them - they're actually tiny pieces of hair which look exactly the same as their 'real' hair and therefore aren't visible - they're more symbolic. Some do wear headscarves, as you say, but they're more M&S style/high street headscarves rather than Hijabs.

The type of wig/head covering depends on the exact branch of Judiasm they follow. The same is true for the dress worn by the men, whether the side locks are word in front of, or behinf the ears, for example.

Some christian sects also cover the hair...Plymouth Bretheren??

No not at all, I havent read the whole shebang about this but think it totally reasonable in our culture to be able to see the expression on someones face when you speak with them.

We are taught this at a very early age. How else can you guauge someones feelings about a given matter.

Last word on this isuue goes to Chestnutter and magic: the point is not which religion is more restrictive than others. I don't even think JS in his wisdom gives a damn about how restricted Muslim women are.

Oh, and let's face it if JS or TB for that matter gave a monkey's about talking to veiled Muslim women face to face to gauge their views on XYZ, why don't they take a poll of British Muslim women and find out what they really think about the presence of British or US troops in the ME. Surely one can sign a poll without removing one's veil ?

magic - so you fail to see the relevance of human rights to this debate ? That is quite astonishing ! Yet people talked ad nausum about freedom of speech (a human right ?) when it came to the Danish cartoons, funny that, how people have these wonderful double standards ?

martian - I am afraid you are barking up the wrong tree ! I do not think that religious belief or dress is more important than other kinds of belief.

Some popel on this thread seem to be implying that everyone who comes over to the UK should by some British cultural edict adhere to our codes of dress here in the UK. I totally disagree with this.

I do not find a veil or headcovering offensive. It is my personal view. I also do not find hoodies or people who wear strange beards or even Asda or Tesco clothing offensive ! I wouldn't buy or wear these things myself (being a bit of a designer snob !!), but I don't find they offend my delicate nature

pople = people !

FWIW I don't feel that people coming here must adhere to all out norms either. But neither do I feel that we must always give up our cultural norms without question. When different cultures moved to the UK I feel this is a positive thing, but they are not coming into a blank slate.

We also have cultural norms, and it is not outragious that they may be asked, not comanded, to adapt their behaviour. Rather as I would adapt my behaviour to the cultural norm of another society.....wearing appropriate clothing in a Muslim country. multiculturalism must be a two way thing if it is to be as positive as possible.

Howvere you did say, 'Well it isn't a religuious thing' So I did take that as your tacit acceptace of religious precidence over non religious.

martian - FWIW - I actually agree with you re. codes of conduct and behaviour - hoorah ! It is Jack's clothing thing I find silly.

I don't think we as Brits. should go abroad, drink ourselves silly, shout and scream and generally behave like uncoathe hooligans when we are abraod (I know only a minority of us do this !) nor that our soldiers should torture, maim and murder civilians.

I also do not think it is appropriate that anyone should come here and take the piss, in the extreme form it would be planting bombs on trains.

However, we are talking about clothing here for feck's sake, not about plotting to blow up JS or TB ! Unless you think veiling and plotting to murder are one and the same thing ?

I like this quote in today's Observer by Sayeeda Warsi, the Tory vice-chairman and a Muslim who wears western dress:

"I can give Jack a list of 10 things that are much more important than veils worn by a couple of thousand women". She added that only 0.5 per cent of British Muslim women wear veils.

Nice one Warsi (sorry you are a Tory though !!)

But in the end there is no difference in JS asking a woman to unveil and a muslim asking me to take off my shoes when I enter a mosque...unless you accept that religious belief takes precidence.....which I know you don't

No either both questions are out of order, or neither. Personaly I don't think either is. even handed logic

Sadly Mb it doesn't work like that in this country, we do what everyone wants us to and we are not afforded the same courtesy, that's why the public is getting really p*ed off.