Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

where would you choose to live if not in the UK FW ?

Yellowrose, I feel you're being a little obtuse about this. This isn't about religion imo, it's about communication. You have consistently failed to address the points people keep making about how difficult it is to communicate on an equal basis with someone whose face you cannot see, when they can see yours. Your deviations into western imperialism are interesting and valid, but not relevant to the argument, which for some of us, is about communication, not religion and you keep ignoring that.

And fuzzywuzzy "with due respect, I don't think a non-muslim is in any position to debate the islamic validity of the veil or not." Why not, if the non-muslim is well informed and educated about Islam (I'm not claiming to be, btw, it's a point of principle). I know non-muslims who were brought up as muslims (they're now atheists or non-practising) who are a damned sight more educated and informed about Islamic theology than some of the benighted men who murder their sisters in the name of their family honour. As I know plenty of atheists / agnostics who have a much better grasp of catholic theology than some of my practising relatives.

They're just ideas you know - anyone who reads enough about them can understand them and debate them. The idea that you can only debate them if you happen to believe in them, is reactionary imo.

Caligula, I don't think any non-muslim who doesn't have any knowledge of Islamic fiqh, can sit by and say, well the veil is not islamic, so they should remove it to accomodate us.
I wouldn't expect a complex point of law to be passed by a lay person. The Islamic veil is more complex than it's not in the quran they don't have to wear it.

My SIL is schooled in Islamic jurisprudence, she can make islamic rulings. But never does lightly and without consultation.

And I totally and utterly agree, it's about time women did take their rightful places in Islam. There are woefully few female Muslim scholars, the fusty old men in charge are far detached from reality to be carrying out valid rulings on a lot of issues involving women.

martian - I am very sorry but this is a very serious misreading of almost everything I have written here:

"ironicaly the person who has most vociferously argued that they should [not] even be asked is Yellowrose, a self confessed athiest!" (I think you meant to have a "not" after the word should ?)

I don't see how my atheism is a contradiction in terms in my having respect and upholding a religious woman's right to wear a veil ? The operative word is RESPECT, not agreement or collusion. I have similar respect for the right of a Jewish woman to wear her Star of David or a Sikh man to wear a turban, etc.

I have not said that Muslims should NOT be qusetioned. They can be questioned and ARE questioned on a daily basis, but if SOME say "NO, could you please leave me alone, I will dress according to my religion" then I will RESPECT their right to dress as they wish.

Gosh, for me it really is as simple as that !

I am actually totally shocked to hear that Muslim women on this website feel scared enough to wish to leave this country. This rings some serious alarm bells for me. I am human FIRST, a bloody feminist second. If a woman tells me that she fears for her saftey/life beacuse of the way she chooses to dress, then I feel nothing but total shame at our so-called liberal Britain.

dinosaur I think that's the point - once you've got to know someone, it doesn't matter if they're wearing a veil or sunglasses, you know them well enough for it not to matter. But before you know them, it does matter, it's a barrier to getting to know them.

Yellowrose, I don't see the contradiction between being a human and a feminist. For me, feminism is about humanity and how men and women can live together as full human beings. There is no conflict there.

Scarey - please read ALL my posts if you are bored enough to do so ! I have said again and again that for me this is not about religion.

But I think you have to be seriously deluded to actually BELIEVE that this is about facial expressions !

If not deluded, then politically naive !!

scarey - you are good at twisting words. Did I actually say there is a contradiction between being human and a feminist ?

I just stated my priorities: human first, feminist-leftie second ! My humanity is more important to me than my political beliefs, and feminism is POLITICAL.

yr, I'm not deluded, I am saying that for me it is about facial expressions/ communication.

For Jack Straw of course, it may well be about something completely different. But I'm not his apologist.

Feminism is part of my humanity. It's not an add-on. I just don't get the dichotomy you're making. (Maybe we should start another thread about feminism)

I really don't understand what you're saying YR. Seriously, maybe I'm being obtuse, but I find it puzzling. I just think my approach to the world is part of me, part of my humanity. And feminism for me isn't a set of ideas, it's a general approach to the world. Maybe that's a bit vague.

It's a bit like someone saying to me "I'm a muslim first, a human second" or "I'm a christian first, a human second". I just expect someone who has a thought out philosophical and ethical view of the world, to look upon that as part of themselves and not to see any separation from their humanity.

Sorry it's quite late and it's getting all a bit deep now. I really want to go to bed but am trying to explain what I mean more clearly.

Sorry obviously I mean "I'm a human first, muslim/ christian second", not the other way round.

Told you it was late. (For me)

Scarey - have a good night and good dreams ! I have lost the will to live on this thread !

What I meant simply put was that political dogma (and feminism is full of it !!) is sometimes at odds with having respect and understanding for other cultures, races, religions.

Hmm... sometimes religions and cultural practices are at odds with respect and understanding for my (and other's) humanity. I can't see why you're singling out feminism for being more at fault than anything else, tbh.

Yellowrose, I'm going to bed too now, but just want to say that for me its about communication too. I don't have a problem with anyone's dress or what motivates it (religious, political or otherwise) but do find it dificult to communicate when I can't see someone's facial expressions.

I think you're reading a whole load of stuff into JS's comment that actually is not neccessarily there. Assuming all white people/white males are male dominant imperialists etc. Its not being politically naive - its just debating what he actually said, rather than reading into his comments stuff that just ain't there.

Also I notice you still haven't addressed the communications issue YR.

Dino, I see what you mean. I think the difference is that you have time to build up a relationship with someone in the school playground and get to know them. And also, it's an equal relationship, as parents. I think it's quite different in a business relationship or in a situation like parent/ teacher or doctor/ patient. Then, the fact that the one of the persons is veiled would be a bigger problem imo because it's about the equality of communication. (Got enough bloody issues of equality with professionals anyway, without adding yet another barrier imo)

Did anyone see Lorraine Kelly's bit this morning, I haven't read JS article..yet..but they say he's demanding that the veil should be banned.
The impression I have from here is that he asked woman who were visiting him if they would remove their face covering to ease communication.
YR the government don't need to radicalise muslim opinion, the media is doing a stirling job.
I'm off to go & find a copy of JS's article unless someone can point me to an online copy.

JS was asked if he would prefer that women didn't wear the veil at all and he replied that, all things considered, he would actually prefer that. That's a long way from saying that he wants it banned.

Did anyone see the article in the Times about the chap arrested on terrorism charges who evaded capture because he dressed in female clothes and wore a veil?

jack straws original column

Have followed this thread with interest and tbh am quite surprised that most people support Jack Straw's view. Like yellowrose, I am confirmed atheist, feminist and used to be what my mother called a "socialist pinko communist" - and agree that this is not really about the religious differences.

For me, it's about a constituent going to see their MP, asking for advice, and being asked to go against what they think is their duty, just so that HE can feel comfortable. I'm not sure the balance of power is right there.

I know some Muslim women (half of my family is Muslim) who argue that there is an interpretation of Islam that says there is actually no need to wear a veil or even a headscarf. But the fact is there are still many Muslim women who feel that they should or want to cover up - I'd love it if they didn't, due to my personal views, but it's not up to me what they do.

There was a Muslim woman on GMTV this morning who only decided to wear the veil 2 weeks ago. She started out by saying that she decided for spiritual reasons, but then admitted later that there was an element of mischief-making in her decision. Her sister doesn't wear the veil but said that she might decide to do so later. Clearly the question of whether to wear one or not is one of personal choice, not really driven by a perception of religious requirement.

So the statement by the woman on GMTV that her face can only be shown to her husband or close family member and as JS is neither she wouldn't be able to is not really true. She has chosen that it should be so and to be asked to remove the veil is not breaching some deeply held religious conviction that God requires her to shield her face.

I see what you're saying Freckle. But she's decided it's important to her that no-one else sees her face - whether that came from a religious, cultural or political impetus. I'm still not sure it's ok to ask her to remove it only because it's not a deeply held religious view. Very interesting point though - if it were a man wanting to wear a balaclava for "political" reasons, then that would feel very threatening.

Interesting that she has looked at what's going on and decided to make herself stand out in this way when she didn't before. I think this often happens when groups are singled out - easiest and quickest way to make a statement in public is with what you wear.

WM I agree that the power balance is the most uncomfortable thing here. It's an odd one, because he wants to feel comfortable - but otoh, what is wrong with him wanting to feel comfortable? Except of course, if it's at the expense of someone else being made to feel deeply uncomfortable.

It seems to me that in that situation, one of the participants is expected to feel uncomfortable. And if they express their discomfort, they're told it's not valid/ not helpful.