Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

nulnulcat, really ?? You cut it??? Was soft and shiny and smelt of Lush shampoo too?? It's my only vanity my hair (can you tell)

I'm from N.I married to a Pakistani man. When I go to Pakistan I find it really refreshing not to be bombarded with imagery of perfect, thin, big bosomed, tight clothed women that are in all our adverts, posters, tv. I suddenly realised what pressure women in our culture are subjected to and don't even realise it. How ludicrous that so many people are getting boob jobs etc. And how differently men and women dress. If men started wearing padded uplifting pants the way women are about bras wouldn't that make for more equality between the sexes!
And incidently I was thinking of getting a burka for my next trip to Pakistan because when I go out in daylight over there I attract a crowd of men and women! And I don't want to be looked at by strangers!

Interesting rosa that you would wear a burka to avoid being looked at by strangers in Pakistan whereas here the garment actually attracts interest.

I agree with you about the pressure on women over here and I've felt it more keenly than ever now I have a daughter.

fuzzywuzzy yes i have cut it all off or rather the hairdresser did whilst i had my eyes really tightly closed!! i decided at 35 it was time i got a grown up hair cut! was a bit unsure for the first 24 hours but i have had so many compliments! majority of men i know always said i was never to cut it but even they say i look better with it now.

and it was washed dried and straightened in 15 minutes this morning!!!! used to take me hours! or i didnt bother with the straighteners

sorry that was completely off topic! but if i was wearing a headscarf / veil i would be convinced i had made a mistake as no one would have seen my new hair to tell me how fab it looked!!!

oh and according to dp my hair smells of bounty bars and is good enough to eat ( i use coconut shampoo and conditioner) and i got a heat protection spray that smells of melon and that really is lush!!

Nulnulcat, dunno if I could ever be parted from my precious locks.... actually I can when my girls have tried to swing from my plait, and covered it in whatever they've been eating...yes then I can feasibly consider cutting it.

This thread has quite caught my attention as I am about to gain a Muslim daughter-in-law (I already have a Jewish dil!). I don't think JS is being racist, he just wants to have available to him as much information as possible. I know from my psychologist son how important facial expressions and body language are to everyday understanding of communications. And if someone communicates by lip-reading (I don't know about JS but the former MP Jack Ashley was profoundly deaf and used to lip-read) then seeing the face is all-important. I have also pondered on how happy I would be to communicate with, say, a doctor or my child's teacher via the veil.

fuzzywuzzy it wasnt an intentional thing i only went in for a trim but i went to a different hairdressers from my usual and the girl had a lovely hairdo so i told her to cut mine like that! it was a totally spur of the moment thing! if i had thought about it i would never have planned on cutting it off! although i always said i never wanted to be an old woman with ridiculously long hair!

Hi Suedonim

I agree. For instance, on here we resort to smiley faces because sometimes people may take a comment seriously and be offended when that's not the intention.
(been wanting to use that one )

So the women being beaten with iron bars for showing their wrists, the woman starving to death because they weren't allowed to work and the girls pushed out of their schools because education was too good for women welcomed it all then? Bollocks. Muslims are brilliant at oppressing women. Why is it so wrong to oppress people on grounds on something they choose (ie religion) but totally Ok to oppress them on something that they cannot choose or change, such as their sex? It wasn't me assuming that Iraq and Afghanistan were interchangeable btw.

And what is 'bogus' about intervening when one of the most aggressive, oppressive regimes in the world is killing people? I supported Amnesty and was appalled that nothing was being done about the Taliban.

If anybody is interested in reading about Irshad Manji, this is a link to her website. She is a Muslim who wants to reclaim the religion from the lunatics and wants Muslims everywhere to reclaim their right to free thinking without fear of losing their life. She herself has received death threats and has been dubbed "Osama's worst nightmare". She has even made it onto the Oprah Winfrey show. Her book is called "The Problem with Islam" and she is a breath of fresh air, particularly for free thinking Muslims who don't want to live their lives as automatic drones on the alter of Allah.

I think she is great! I know that Peacedove (and btw where is he...he normally pops up in these threads?) doesn't think the same

My problem is with a man telling women what he thinks they should wear. If it were a woman, and a Muslim woman, saying the same things - as a number do, of course - there is a long tradition of free-thinking, wide-ranging Muslim thinking, as I understand it - I'd feel very differently.

I'm not hog-whimpering wild about what most religions do to and for women, I have to say.

Apropos of absolutely nothing I've just heard from my partner, who has a Muslim surname and has his father's Bangladeshi colouring that he only got into the States (he's flown there from a conference) after a one-hour grilling at the airport.

Funnily enough we have been stopped as searched every time we have crossed the channel tunnel over the last year MI. DH is caucasian, but very swarthy and his face as a sligly 'semitic' cast (not surprising given his very complex background)

PS, did you co write the Bible I was discussing!? PMSL

But MI I don't think this is an issue of a man telling a woman what to wear. It is JS asking women not to wear a specific item, which if men also wore (and apart from notable exceptions like the Tuareg, in the main they don't) he would also be deeply uncomfortable with, and would ask the men to remove. Just as he would ask a young man wearing a hoody, helmet or balaclava which obscured his face, to remove it.

I really don't think we should cloud the issues here with feminist arguments. This isn't about JS, a man, telling women what to do. It's about him asking people (who happen to be women) to have the good manners to meet him on an equal footing. (Someone mentioned talking to someone when their back's turned. In our parenting course, we did an exercise where we had to talk to each other with our back turned and it was really difficult not to turn our heads to look at the other person with whom we were conversing. Don't know why I mentioned that, it just reminded me of that exercise.)

I also think there's a difference if you know the person you're talking to as well. I know someone who wears a veil when she's out and about, but when she's with other women obviously she takes it off. And because I know what her face looks like underneath, and how her face works expression-wise, it's not as difficult to talk to her when she's wearing her veil. Just as it's fine to talk to a very good friend who is wearing sunglasses, because you know them well. I do think there's a huge difference if you don't know someone though, in terms of how easy it is to communicate with them.

I have to agree - I think the same would apply if it were men who wore the veil. I don't think its all about men telling women what to wear in this case.

I'm sort of with JS on this one, but I do worry about it giving biggoted racists some licence.

I think it is slightly about men telling women what to do. JS has a perfect right to his opinion, but if he asked me whether I had realised that wearing shorts (for instance) to the office made me look unprofessional, I would feel a bit miffed (whether he was right or wrong).

I think alot of what he said was reasonable, although some of it came across as a little gauche. It is definitely fair for an MP to discuss issues that affect his constituents. I think the problem is when it flairs up into people making some of the more stupid comments that have appeared on this thread. JS must have known that this would happen when he published the article, and he does seem to have got alot of personal support from the tabloid press and middle England...

I think we are desensitised to the constant sexualisation of women in our society so we don't see it but people who have grown up with a different background or set of perspectives see nothing else. So they feel they have to go to extreme lengths to protect themselves from it.
Btw the muslim women I know are not prudish, repressed or inhibited they just want to express their sexuality privately.
If some one felt they needed to cover their face from me I wouldn't dream of asking them to remove it even though I would like them to.
But it is all part of a WHOLE thing going on which can't be addressed separately from the main issues I think. ie fear of Islam

roselily-your post really reminds me of a line in "the handmaids tale" by margaret atwood.The women are covered and wear veils and they told that before, they had freedom to, now they have freedom from.
thinking of it in those terms it's a bit scary actually.( have you read the book?)

sorry- your post about wearing a burkha.

No haven't read it but I would be interested to read it at some point.