Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

"but why are women suddenly wearing the full veil now? "

its not that more women are suddenly wearing the veil, just that you see more of them because Muslims have migrated/women's roles have changed in Muslim communities/we move round more - transport is easier. We notice it more.

Have to say that here in lovely Qatar there are an infinite number of lovely ladies in all manner of headscarfs (including that metal place thing someone mentioned). Its so normal to me now that I don't have any qualms about talking or joking with people I meet. And when I go to the hairdresser/gym/spa/ladies clothing shops they're happily taking off the veil and headscarf and informing me that I should spend more on skincare and get my eyebrows dealt with). I guess familiarity takes away the scare factor (and DS loves all the attention he gets).

Like others I'm aware that I need to dress in a more covered way than I might in the UK but have experienced no problems from being uncloaked - oh except from the lairy riggers when they come into town. And they were Geordies... should I now condemn all Geordies because 3 got drunk and excitable? I mean I could see condemning them for Fog on the Tyne but....

I am surprised that not one person has so far mentioned the political motives/implications of Mr Straw and his un-veiling debate. The man has had Muslim women in his constituency for the past 25 years and only NOW does he think that he needs to see their faces ? What was he doing in the past, using x-ray vision to see them like Superman ?

Bloody hell, how can one be anything but totally cynical !

Lets' talk about double standards, feminism (where the hell is it ?) and cultural imperialism.

It's not true that more women are not wearing the veil. Globally, women are wearing the veil more than they have done from the early twentieth century onwards. In places like Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq etc., there was a gradual move against wearing the veil - in the nineteen fifties, educated women in cities did not wear the veil to the same extent that they did now.

And in the UK, young women whose mothers never wore the veil, are taking to wearing it. I think it is more common now, and that's why we're noticing it more - it's not just that there are more muslims in britain, from places which have a bigger tradition of veil wearing.

feminism is wholly conflicted about the wearing of the veil, yellow rose. Of course it is. what do you suggest is the appropriate response of feminism to a custom/practice that requires women to cover themselves in this way?

rosy - you are absolutley right. The whole discussion needs to be seen in the context of 9/11, the bombings in London and elsewhere and the wars in the ME. It is a fear of "the other", and now the "unseen face". It makes some people crap themselves silly.

yellowrose I think the reason he's speaking now, and saying what many people have been saying for the last 20 years, is because if he'd said this 20 years ago he would have simply been condemned outright as a racist. End of. It simply wasn't socially acceptable to even raise the issue.

Whereas now, it is. Politically, I can't really see what he's got to gain. He represents a constituency where the "muslim vote" is pretty crucial in who wins the seat.

But of course he's also appealing to a wider public than just his own constituency.

Fuzzy why do you wear a veil. Perhaps you have eexplained earlier but I have missed it. A Muslim colleague I worked with always said that women were expected to dress modestly and the wearing of a veil is just one interpretation of that. Is it something to do with thinking that when Men see an immodestly dressed woman they might lose control?

YR it's not fear of the covered face. It's a dislike of being put in a position where you have to communicate with someone who has erected a deliberate barrier to communication and has an advantage over you because you are showing her more of your thoughts and feelings than she is showing you. The same as talking to someone who is wearing dark sunglasses when you are not, or talking to someone from behind a two way mirror when they can see you but you can't see them. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter what religion or race the person is, it's the individual social situation.

harpsi - I don't know if you read my initial post here. I consider myself a feminist. I don't NOT like political or religious oppression of any variety. You miss the point. If a religious woman is ASKED or FORCED to remove her veil aganiust her deeply felt religious convictions, I see this as a denial of her CIVIL/HUMAN rights as well as her religious rights.

AtaTurk did this in Turkey. Interestingly enough millions of Turkish women still CHOOSE to continue to wear a headscarf. They are not forced to wear it and indeed the Turkish regime would love it if they didn't as they would like to join the EU, but the women still wear it. How has this progressed feminism in Turkey ? If anything many women saw a forced un-veiling as political oppression.

Alexsmummy I've read the handmaiden's tale. But the difference here is that women are choosing to adopt the full veil (or not as the case may be). In the book they were forced to no questions.

I repeat, I don't mind most questions, I don't mind most requests, so long as the choice is there, so long as I'm allowed to enjoy the same freedoms as every other man and woman in this country ie to be able to wear what I want as everyone is.

I'm not saying don't question me, I've never said that, but being told to remove an item of my clothing because it makes some people uncomfortable because it is alien to them makes me a second class citizen doesn't it.
I also think it's an incredible patronizing assumption, when some people think that banning the veil is somehow doing a big favour to the poor little oppressed women beneath the veils. Especially as most people have said they've not spoken with these women to ascertain whether we are oppressed by the veil. Or whether we feel oppressed by being forced to remove it against our wishes.

sacrey - I am just not convinced by analogies with helmets and dark glasses (I wear sunglasses all the times by the way as I have extremely sensitive eys and my eyes water even in faint sunlight). These are not religious symbols and have no inherent religious significance to the wearer unless they belong to a religious sect of helmet or indoor sunglasses wearers like Karl Lagerfeld !

But that's the point I'm making YR. Feeling uncomfortable talking to someone who has covered her face, is exactly the same social discomfort one feels when one talks to someone one doesn't know well who has covered their eyes or face by any other method. Social discomfort is not racism and it is extremely unhelpful (and in some cases dishonest) to describe it as such. It doesn't progress understanding one iota, imo.

drosophila I don't wear the face veil I wear the headscarf. I wear it because I believe without a doubt that it is prescribed by God.

I'm not saying it's to hide my irressistable feminine allure, I'm not saying men/women cannot control themselves in my presence.

I wear it because it was prescribed by God.

scarey - I also disagree with what you say about JS not being able to do this 20 years ago as it would have been seen as racist. So how is it seen now in the broad context of racial relations with a backdrop of Iraq and Afghanistan to contend with ?

If you look at JS's political record, you will see that it is not the first time he has missed the point.

sacrey - just for the record - I have never either here or elsewhere called Mr Straw a racist. I don't think he is one, he is a Jew and I think he knows better. I do think he is a fool though.

YR, I think it's just that now, the establishment has decided that questioning the value and meaning of multi-culturalism, is allowed. 20 years ago, it simply wasn't. The only ones who did it were the Daily Mail, in their usual rabid way. So JS's statements are controversial now, but not beyond the pale as they would have been then.

Re women "choosing" to wear the veil, I think as with all choices, you have to look at that in the context of the society in which they are living. I choose not to wear certain garments in certain social situations (like mini-skirts for example) because I am made to feel uncomfortable by men for wearing them; "choosing" not to wear them therefore, isn't a completely free choice, is it? Of course for many women, wearing the veil is a choice but for far too many, it's nothing like a free choice and I think it's disingenuous to pretend that it is.

Not saying you're saying that, btw, or calling JS a racist for that matter, but in RL lots of people are.

scarey - yes, for some Mulism women covering the face or hair is NOT a free choice, I know this as I have Muslim friends who have lived in places like Saudi. However, for many of the women it IS a free choice (often it is just a TRADITION to cover the hair in front of strangers rather than any deep felt religious conviction).

How is one to KNOW that the women with the covered faces walking past us has been forecd to wear it ? Is it our business to know ?

Well yes on a global issue I think it is our business to know. Women's choices and the restriction of those choices, and the context in which they're being made, are all part of feminism for me.

Anyway must go out now, back later.

Caligula I don't think so, I've been met with more shock and disgust for wearing a hijaab (and I've seen friends struggle to maintain their veils, in the face of a lot of opposition within the family and the community), the women (who I know) who have adopted the veil are educated and have chosen this as their way of life. This is England, nobody can force me to wear the veil if I don't want to, I'd get so much support and back slapping if I flung it away I bet on MN alone.
I actually don't know of any woman being forced into wearing a face veil either here or in India to be honest. Which is not to say it may not happen, but some people will bully others, happens in all situations.

With regards choosing not to wear a certain garment because you the wearer feels uncomfortable at the reaction, you have the choice though don't you??
At the moment so do women wearing face veils, they must go out and accept an unwelcome reaction.
But I wouldn't expect to have a mini skirt ripped off me because some passerby didn't like it.

No. I really appreciate being able to see someone's face when I speak with them. Facial expressions are so important in communication.

BTW, there were some heavily veiled women in our shopping centre a few weeks ago & dd was quite frightened. Why are those people all covered in black, Mummy? Is it for dress-up? No, I said, they have to be covered because their religion says they should. But why? says dd. So men can't see them. But Mummy, why shouldn't men see them?

Couldn't answer that one.

Also, surely outward manifestations of faith are more or less redundant since faith is what you feel in your heart. I know that sounds incredibly naïve & it's all far more complex but nevertheless...

i think mostly the fear is because of the unknown, this thread has been informative, shame the media can't give us these answers, they just seem to jump on the negatives iykwim!

I agree with Caligula. to suggest that all women, or even the majority of women, have a free choice of whether to wear a veil is disingenuous. are women in Muslim countries, soiceties, in Muslim families free to choose whether to follow Islam or not? to follow a particular interpretation of Islam regarding her dress or not? that just makes a mockery of the term "choice".
Is it our business to know if women are forced to wear a veil?
yes, I believe it is feminism's business to stand up for women if they are oppressed. if they are subject to rules which inhibit their right to live freely and without being subject to patriarchy.
I appreciate that is my own cultural bias and possibly to be interpreted as cultural imperialism, but there you go, it's what I believe.

Allhallows -oi but if you feel something in your heart but don't live it out in daily life then you are not going to be in balance with yourself I think.

I agree with it is the inward faith that is the main thig, but surely the outward manifestation helps doesn't it, which is why we use symbols and actions..no??

I am seriously considering going to my local primary school and doing a talk on my faith/dress to the young children there (perfect timing it being ramadan and all). Am wondering if this will be welcomed or if the police will turn up at my door and charge me for recruiting for Osama bin laden