Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

Do people assume Muslims are humourless? I certainly don't. In any case, it has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

if muslims have a sense of humour then why all the fuss about the danish cartoons? jokes are made about catholics jews etc all the time and i dont see any of them threatening death to people.
is rushdie still in hiding?

i studied cultural imperialism at university as part of my dissertation and no culture has the right to impose its culture on another one particularly on an indeginous one, britain acted in the wrong in the british empire however there are areas in this country where you would think you were in an area of india / pakistan

i have lived in these areas so i know what i mean

english road names blacked out, english posters defaced because they cause offence and non asian women unable to walk comfortably down the street without facing abuse. i do not dress like a "whore" so who has the right to shout names at me like this because i am wearing a skirt or shorts

i attended a catholic school there was only a couple of asian girls in the school but the way their parents acted you would have thought they were the only students there, their parents objected to them attending mass, praying in the morning observing catholic holy days but on the other hand there daughters were supposed to be allowed to practice there religion

britain is a multi cultural society and everyone should respect each others views. as i have and other people have pointed out when visiting arab /muslim countries we respect their cultures by covering up so surely we should get the same respect back and in this country covering our faces is not part of our culture. and if they are doing it through personal choice then no one should take offence if asked to remove it,

green - you made a comment re. it being ok to make jokes about Catholics ? I was trying to point out that most Muslims I know enjoy humour about their culture and religion. Only a minority of hard core nutcases find any form of questioning or humour unacceptable. We all seemed to agree that such hard core cases existed in ALL religions. I thought an indirect inference was being made about a Muslim's inability to accept humour.

why are muslims getting so extreme now though, it's only lately that these arguments are coming about? we seemed to have got alot together for many years up until now

nul - were ALL Muslims outraged by the cartoons ? I think there are a billion Muslims in the world, were they all offended, or was it just a minority who shouted and raved and frothed at the mouth ?

Yes, Brick Lane in London used to look like Bangaldesh, I lived/worked right next to the area for 3.5 years. Now it is one of the trendiest parts of London and the relatively poor Muslim Bangladeshi community, some veiled, seem to live/work very happily next to the pinstripped suited City slicks. So what is the problem ? Isn't this an indication that people can live quite happily if left alone ?

south - my view is that the Muslim community is feeling victimised because of the bogus wars we are running in the ME. This govt. denies it but that is because they are good at burying their heads in the sand and sticking their arses up in the air.

yellowrose
I come from Hounslow & lived for a long while in Slough, I have been aware of these extreme islamic views for a while. At first I disbelieved it when a when a young muslim male colleague of mine told me his greatest ambition was to be a martyr.

He was looking forward to a visit by a man called Louis Farrakand..do you remember him?
That was 1991. His excuse was Palestine.

Yes, yellowrose, I was referring to your particular comment "Why is it that people assume Mulims are humourless" - I don't think that they do assume that, nor do I think that it is relevant to this debate.

i just don't know what the us are trying to prove with this war but people all over the world are paying for it, he doesn't care

MT quote away. Sorry life got in the way and have only just logged back on.

I spoke to my little sister today, and she told me about an incident at work.

Her and a work colleague (who wear the face veil), went shopping at lunch time (in Hackney so it's not like my sister and friend are the only Muslim women in the area), as my sister and friend were waiting to pay she heard the stall holder say 'don't serve that girl in the veil until she removes it...' My sister completely lost it and totally tore a strip into him. He was being racist, my sisters friend is tiny, and very shy, and would have probably left without saying anything, but my sister has been taught to stand up for her rights, and she did.
She got an apology from the stall holder and perhaps he'll think twice before trying to force a woman to remove her clothing before serving her.
Sister reckoned the stall holder thought they were both unable to speak english or too scared or both.

Wearing the hijaab, or the niqaab is nothing like a motorcycle helmet (I'm waiting now for an eye witness to post that she saw a woman dressed in the Muslim veil hold up a bank with a machine gun).

I don't think the point is ever going to get across, no one male or female outside of my immediate family (and ok very close female non-muslim friends), has ever seen me without my headscarf (ever sicne I was about 18 I think). It is not like removing a sweater, or a coat or whatever, it goes deeper than that.

I dunno perhaps consider what it would be like to ask a nun to remove her wimple. I know nothing about nuns or their wimples, but I'm thinking that perhaps a woman of God would know exactly how it feels to be forced to remove a piece of clothing she feels she wears for God and God alone.

MB I also said further down, that a muslim person worships in their house and obviously mosque. Our worship consists of gettign down on the floor and prostrating, does it make sense now why we ask for people to remove shoes then???

Also for whoever said, I expect every whorshipper would be incredibly offended if someone waltzed in wearing a swimsuit, but then wouldn't the same thing apply if you walked into a church, Gudwara, temple, synagogue in a swimsuit???
Clearly I know nothing about these places of worship, but I would think that there is a certain amount of decorum that is expected to be observed in such places.

I think that people should be allowed to wear what they feel comfortable in. I remember years ago, Seik men fighting for the right to be able to wear their turbans, rather than wear motorcycle helmets or police helmets and I support that.

However, I do think covering your face does cut you off from society somewhat. As a person who normally chats with other women in shops, on public transport etc, I feel a bit inhibited in making chit chat with a woman who has her face covered - maybe that's just my inhibition though.

I think covering your face does give the impression to other people that you want to remain segregated and not make eye contact/smile etc and pass the normal body language communication and signals that people do when out and about. I'd welcome the views from the Muslim women on here though.

Hello FW
Are there any nuns on mumsnet? Or ex-nuns maybe.
I'd like to think Jack Straw isn't ignorant enough to be racist.
I do think there is a loud extremist voice out there that would like you to think he is.
I once asked a muslim colleague why she wore her scarf. She told me in seriousness that it was to hide her beauty.
???
Also ??? to orthodox jewish woman who apparently wear wigs to cover their real hair.
But it's your choice.
All I ever see of religion is the ability to divide people based on interpretations of things written by men, mere men. And it is after all a fantastic tool for controlling large numbers of people.

Hooley - Jack Straw wasn't referring to anyone covering their hair - he was referring to the difficulty of communicating with someone who has their entire face covered, apart from their eyes.

I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but I don't think its useful to get sidetracked into a debate about head scarves, wigs ec, as that wasn't the issue he's referring to.

Personally for me I wear the hijaab (headscarf), becasue I do firmly and honestly believe that it is prescribed by god for women, nothign to do with my stunning beauty.

I think each woman should arrive at her own conclusion from her own research.

I'm telling you it is difficult to wear the headscarf, so can only imagine how difficult it must be to adopt the full face veil. I was about 18 when I decided at university to wear the hijaab full time.
The first day I walked into uni I was stared at, and some people commented, and my (non-muslim)male friends were a little wary of speaking to me....and then they realised hey it's the same fuzzy but now we can't stroke her hair (actually one of the pros of wearing a hijaab, the number of blokes who thought it was OK to stroke my hair without so much as a by your leave!!!).

Btw Louis Farrakahn was a leading member of the nation of Islam ,they're completely different from Muslims and Islam.

I don't take offence to being asked to do anything, I don't mind questions.

I do take offence to being told to 'go home then if you don't like it' because quite frankl;y that is plain racist. And also having thought about it, what on earth does Middle Eastern laws have to do with a third Generation brit...ie me??
apoparantly in timbutktu they make you stand on your head naked for five hours before letting you through passport control, it has nothing to do with me, and I wouldn't expect to pay for it here.

Of course Jack Straw's not racist. There's lots wrong with him, but he has a track-record of anti-racism. I agree with him. Talking to someone whose face is covered is as disconcerting as talking to someone wearing dark glasses. And there are lots of situations in Britain you're not allowed to cover your face- a demo being one of them. You can be arrested for covering your face on a demo (though muslim women aren't, afaik)

One thing about women's free choice in wearing it as well, is that the more muslim women who freely choose to wear it, the harder it is for those muslim women who don't want to, to withstand the pressure to. I don't know whether that should be the first set of women's problem (probably shouldn't be, it's not their fault other people are pressuring other women) but it is a fact of life, I think.

And another thing: if it's so great, why don't Muslim men cover their faces as well?

hello FF
Is Jack straw a racist because?...
That was my answer.
And my point was that a simple question doesn't have a simple answer for the reasons I stated.
And I think its been said far more eloquently by a lot of others before me.Good thread isn't it? If only we could discuss these issues so easily in the real world.

we should be talking about the iraq war its forgotten, maybe people are trying hard for us to listen to them?

that men felt free to stroke your hair fw. That would freak me out tbh - a bit creepy. I might take to wearing a hijab myself to avoid that. Or tell them I had nits - that'd put a stop to it.

what do women who wear the veil do when they go on holiday? how do they pass through immigration?

i was working as cabin crew in 2001 and saw the hostility many muslims wrongly encountered when trying to travel by air, there are many ignorant people in this country so how do these women travel by air / any public transport in this day and age where muslims have used their religion as an excuse for terrorism

the women must be very thick skinned to cope with the comments they must receive

i know women wearing the veil are not terrorists but however in this day and age i would feel very uncomfortable if i was travelling and there were people whose faces i could not see

i have had to deal with muslim passengers been accused of all sorts but i could calm the situation down as everyone could see each others faces i dont think i would be able to do that if someone had their face obscured

fuzzywuzzy until thursday my hair was long and curly and past my bum and no one has ever felt the need to come up and stroke it!

I don't know nulnulcat. Actually I do, my sil who wears the face veil still wears it pretty easily, but she lives in Dubai, and travels to India where I would imagine it's more normal.

Hooleymama I think my friend was joking about the face veil....well he's still single as far as I knwo so perhaps he gave up when everyone ran away from him!!!