Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

No there's no reason for the black, I used ot wear all black because ermmm I went through a phase of wearing only black....Don't most teens??

Funnily a friend thought it was a religious requirement, when she came to see me shortly after I'd had my first baby, she went 'oooh wow look your'e wearing blue.....Is that allowed?'

To which I replied 'well yes any colour is allowed'.

It trasnpired that she went to a convent in OZ, and apparantly nuns wear specific colours, and the convent she went to they all wore grey. So she thougut it was similar with Muslims, we were only meant to wear one specific colour.

But yes I agree a splash of colour ggoes a long way to make a person look more approachable.

nunulcat, you visit dubai you have to adhere to their laws.

I live, Work and wass educated here as were my parents, and grandparents, and we also adhere to laws here.

You could quite feasibly drink and wear skirts in Dubai, nobody is going to bat an eyelash, it's very multi cultural as it happens.

my only problem is that when my brother goes into a bank he is forced to remove his bike helmet. quite rightly it is frightenig and could be dangerous as it could cover his face if he were to rob it or something.

well those veils could be hidinganyone underneath couldn't they? why aren't they asked to remove them before going into a bank or post office? at least with my brothers crash helmet you can get a good idea of body shape and gender,..you couldn't with those veils.

I don't thik that Jack was racist and in fact i get a bit pissed off by the term racist being slung about everytime anyone questions something from another faith or ethnic background.

the full burka is a very pyhsical barrier between two people and i do think it prevents a certain amount of discussion or conversation. i also think it is quite intimidating to some people.
but then im against anything that says women should hide themselves for the sake of men.

i have lived in worked in dubai saudi and bahrain and although they are multi cultural i would not say they were tolerant. i worked for an airline and we were very much covered up and treated with absolutely no respect from the male arab passengers

they insist arab women dress modestly etc but are quite happy to visit strip clubs and prostitutes

i know girls in this country that have worked as escorts and many of their clients have been muslim men

i dont know any women that choose to cover themselves up totally so i cannot comment for them but i have met women who have been told by there fathers/brothers/husbands etc that they must cover up i dont understand on one hand they say women showing off there figures is offensive yet at the same time are visiting strip clubs etc

if the women wearing veils are upsetting people here then imagine the uproar if i went to a muslim country and walked round in cropped tops and mini skirts! i dont think i would be politely asked to cover up and would i be able to refuse?

lots of people on this very interesting thread have talked about fear of Islam..just wanted to put my tuppenyworth in..

I don't fear Islam, I fear the repressive, mysoginistic interpretation of it that gets so much publicity, and the hysterical (mainly male it seems) mobs that the media would have us believe are part of the Islamic world...

Why shouldn't I show my face & hair & ankles..why should I have to hide them (they're not that gorgeous).
Why should I not be allowed to drive or leave the house even to earn a living unless a male member of my family comes with me.
Why should I fear honour killings If I don't behave 'modestly' or choose to fall in love with the wrong person.
As a woman with that information, Islam scares me. Too many woman have worked too hard to give me the right to vote, to own property and to have the 'equality' that I enjoy.
My much loved late father believed that a womans place was in the home and that I was going to Uni' to educate my children, fighting his attitude and defending my choices was enough for me.

hooleymama i agree totally

When did you work in Dubai?? It's changed by leaps and bounds now, I went last year and compared ot three years ago it's light years away, there are night clubs and women do walk around in clothes similar to the ones they'd wear on a hot day here and nobdoy blinks.

Don't get me startedo n Arab men or a lot of 'Muslim' men from back home, they're muslim in name only as far as their actions go.

All the girls I've met spojen to, who wear hijaab and were bought up here have done so off their own bat, most against great family opposition. A lot of parents object because they tihnk their daughters will not get married, as potential suitors will be uable to see just how pretty the girls is, Mothers often think the girls are acting holier than tohu especially if no other female i the fmaily wears the hijaab.

My IL's are plain evil to my youngest sister in law as she chooses to wear the entire veil, despite them being aware of this before she married my husbands younger brother.

i was there 6 years ago, you could only drink illegally many western ex pats were arrested for being drunk one couple was arrested for kissing in public and not being married!! and you would be spat at for dressing immodestly!

not to do with the veil but more the intolerance does anyone remember the public beheading of the saudi princess because she acted "inappropiatley"

No (sane) muslim is saying all women should wear the veil.

We (muslims) don't all wear the veil.

We do however demand the equal right of our non-muslim counter-parts who are allowed to wear whatever they want.

I want and expect to be allowed to wear whatever I wish.

I don't particularly give a fig what anyone else wears either.

I want my daughters to live in a society that won't tear their clothing from them should they choose (and yes it will be entirely their own choice), to wear a hijaab.

I choose to wear a hijaab, my three sisters don't, nobody in my family male or female has a thing to say about this.

As for the examples given of Muslim men being scary and vile.

Well I've had the local white teens try to break my door down in the middle of the night

I've had abuse yelled at me by white men (grown ones at that).

I've sat next to a black man on the bus and listened to him snarl 'oh Fing Pakis' when a man (Italian man) got on the bus and asked the driver something delaying the bus (bloke was italian he was speaking italian to his friend afterwards).

I've been told by an elderly white lady that 'there'll be no more white faces around here soon' when visiting my sister in hospital, it should be noted out of six bays my sisters bay was the only one with non-white faces which had about four black and idian women there.

I'm assuming that this is not representative of British society, just as the vile men encountered are most definitely not representative of all Muslims.

Let me clarify, I think anyone should be aboe to wear what they want to wear, within reason, but when asked to compromise on occassions then we should. People who wear veils for example can do so, but if they expect to attend an english school for example, or work somewhere where a uniform of code of dress is required then we should all adhere to this. When I go to a conference with work or visit clients, I have to dress in business clothes, I do not however cry that this is an infrigment of my human rights as some people do. But again if you want to live in a western society and integrate with others in your community, then people should not get on their high horse.

I was going to leave it at just one post on this thread although I have been lurking and reading with interest. It seems that a lot of the posters who feel uncomfortable with women wearing the full veil complain that they are expected to cover up and respect cultures and laws if they go to the middle east. The good thing about Britain is that people can choose to wear what they want even if we don't all like it. Personally I feel uncomfortable if a woman shows too much flesh but I will defend her right to do so - surely that's part of living in a democracy. I honestly wish to know whether the people who have made such comments would like britain to have laws like there are in the middle east that define what a woman should wear? I would not want any woman of whatever race religion or culture to feel uncomfortable by being told to dress a certain way or to not dress a certain way. When I walk out of my door I see people of all sorts of different religions, races and cultures who express their heritage and beliefs externally and I love it it makes the world more interesting, why would we want everyone to be the same? I understand that this is not the point of the question that started this post and I think my other post shows my answer to that but it does seem to me to be the way this post is going. We seem (or at least some seem) to be debating whether it is right and appropriate for a muslim woman to wear a full veil in the UK, not whether JS was right to ask if his constituents would mind removing their's.

I don't think that many of us do mind being asked to respect local customs elsewhere in the world. I know that I don't. I wore appropriate clothing is Egypt so that local peolpe did not think poorly of me, I respected their cultural norm.

But the obverse is not true.

For most people in the UK it is culturaly normal to see someones full face. If people live in the UK, do we not expect them to conform to UK cultural norms? or if they choose not to do so (and fwiw I think that they do have this right) they should do so knowing that what they are doing so against the general cultural and historical pattern of behaviour in this country.

slightly off topic but there are some muslims living in Britain who abhor the western way of life.

If it is so abhorrent why on earth would you want to come to Britain?

I moved to the UK 10 years ago. As I decided to move to this country, it was/is up to me to integrate here and respect the local customs and laws. I find it very offensive that whenever somebody makes comments about the Muslims and their need to integrate, some of them blow up things out of proportions. If they do not respect the western way of life, why move here?

Yes I find it deeply offensive seeing women on the streets covered from head to toe. Women fought very hard throught centuries to get equal rights with men. I don't see anything equal in covering yourself from head to toe (if I misunderstand the meaning of it, please explain).I respect that it is their choice, but maybe they can exercise their choice in the privacy of their home or amongst their friends. If white women are expected to cover themselves up when in a Muslim country, maybe they should accept the British way of life if here, just as I have.

I can't see how what happens in Dubai or wherever has any bearing on this discussion. Let them do what they like. It seems so silly saying 'well they won't let visitors wear shorts, we won't let anyone wear a veil, then'. That sort of argument seems to belong in the playground. Just because there is intolerance in some countries doesn't mean there should be intolerance in this one. Let people wear what they like. It's really nobody else's business. Yes, if it's getting in the way of communicating with someone ask them to take off their sunglasses, veil whatever. And if they feel uncomfortable doing so, then do the best you can.
It's no big deal. As long as nobody tries to make me wear what I don't want to, fine. Let others wear what they feel is right for them. I don't think that the problem is dress, it is the unfamiliarity with the people who dress like that, that is the concern. People feel threatened by what they don't know or understand, whether it's teenage goths, skinheads or people in religious dress. And in some cases people who dress extreme are often seen as representing the extreme view. As it is often people holding extreme views of something, whether religion or politics, who are instigators of threats and violence, I think it is understandable that this link between dress and undesirable actions could be made and so make other people uncomfortable. It would help enormously if people across the board mingled more but it's difficult if you don't have too much in common. I think the JS thing has been blown all out of proportion by the media, who I think shouldn't sensationalise as much as they do.

I don't think Jack Straw is racist and tbh I can see his point, but having been lurking here I really agree with bewilderbeast. Social norms are constantly changing (sometimes for the worse), it has not always been one way in the West, and it won't ever be!

Sorry coming very late this thread - yes I do think he's a racist - sorry but I do.

I think it's utter rubbish that he can't communicate properly with someone if he can't see their face.........how does he think blind people cope?? Is he saying that people such as David Blunkett are unable to communicate with people because he can't see their face???

He's NOT blind though QOQ and as such communicates, as other sighted people do, by watching peoples facial expressions.

Perhaps Jack Straw and indeed all MPs and in fact everyone who ever has to communicate with the public in any way, should have to go to college to learn new skills about how to read voices and eyes just in case they ever have to communicate with someone with a veil. After all we can't possibly request that person remove the veil. That would be unacceptable.

Eh?

Fuzzywuzzy, do you mind if I cut and paste from your posts to place on another site where this issues is raging?

For such a prominent site, the BBC Woman's Hour message board is conspicuoulsy lacking in different cultural perspectives.

I'd like, with your permission to post these extracts from your posts on here

"amongst muslim's I've also met Muslim women who think that any woman who wears the hijaab, thinks she's betterthan other women. It's not the case. I know it took a lot of soul searching and was the hardest thing I ever did.

It's not just a piece of cloth, it does make one stand out, and people are forever questioning you, making assumptions about you. Some talk to me as if I my hijaab covers an exceptionally low IQ, the bus driver said to me 'Do. You. Have. TEN. PEE' really really slowly.. to which I replied 'yes mate, but the fares £1.50 and that's the amount I've given you, why'd you want TEN. PEEE??' , I'm glad I wear hijaab and am in the public with it, at least then the people I meet will know that a headscarf doesn't mean I'm stupid or oppressed, or foreign!!!!"

The facial expression argument is pathetic. I am not one for facial coverings, whether Islamic or otherwise as I am not religious and do not see the point of such things, but as a Jew Mr Straw should know better than picking on one particular ethnic/religious community, many of whom live in his own backyard. This is even more relevant as he belongs to a govt. that is murdering members of that same religious group in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What I am saying is that Straw, like his
paymaster Blair, should at least try to have a tiny bit of sense and sensitivity to religious/race issues in particular those that relate to the ME. But that is just asking too much of this govt. isn't it ?

Oop's, wrong cut and paste - thai is what I'd actually like to post - soz..

"

It's not just a piece of cloth, it does make one stand out, and people are forever questioning you, making assumptions about you. Some talk to me as if I my hijaab covers an exceptionally low IQ, the bus driver said to me 'Do. You. Have. TEN. PEE' really really slowly.. to which I replied 'yes mate, but the fares £1.50 and that's the amount I've given you, why'd you want TEN. PEEE??' , I'm glad I wear hijaab and am in the public with it, at least then the people I meet will know that a headscarf doesn't mean I'm stupid or oppressed, or foreign!!!!

No (sane) muslim is saying all women should wear the veil.

We (muslims) don't all wear the veil.

We do however demand the equal right of our non-muslim counter-parts who are allowed to wear whatever they want.

I want and expect to be allowed to wear whatever I wish.

I don't particularly give a fig what anyone else wears either.

I want my daughters to live in a society that won't tear their clothing from them should they choose (and yes it will be entirely their own choice), to wear a hijaab.

I choose to wear a hijaab, my three sisters don't, nobody in my family male or female has a thing to say about this.

As for the examples given of Muslim men being scary and vile.

Well I've had the local white teens try to break my door down in the middle of the night

I've had abuse yelled at me by white men (grown ones at that).

I've sat next to a black man on the bus and listened to him snarl 'oh Fing Pakis' when a man (Italian man) got on the bus and asked the driver something delaying the bus (bloke was italian he was speaking italian to his friend afterwards).

I've been told by an elderly white lady that 'there'll be no more white faces around here soon' when visiting my sister in hospital, it should be noted out of six bays my sisters bay was the only one with non-white faces which had about four black and idian women there."

We have a large part of our brain which does nothing but recognise faces! This is why we are so good at 'seeing' faces in clouds, in flames etc

To sugest that we don't use facial cues to aid understanding is just silly.

And in this society we are used to seeing faces on a daily basis and get constant feed back and reinforcement in our understanding of mood etc from faces. Just watch a mother with her child and see how they 'mirror' each others facial expresions.

Yes, blind people cope, of course they do, but are you telling me that we can't get visual information just because they can?

He asked he didn't demand.

He had a woman present at all times as a chapeone.

He fully acepted a 'no', with no issues at all.

So you are saying he is racist because he asked them? So are Muslims racist if they ask us to remove our shoes on entering a mosque?

Leading muslims have said this is not racism. They have also said that a woman is free to compy if she wishes.

Of course this discussion would never have happened if Jack Straw was female. I have lots of friends and colleagues who wear varying forms of hijab or veil. Not one of them would wear the face covering in front of me because I'm female. A good argument for more women in parliament I think

I think the facial expression argument it utterly reasonable and totally obvious myself.