The Rotherham 1,400 children plus – WHO is responsible?

[Isitmebut]

The Rotherham situation, where the authorities appear to have done NOTHING to protect children in care, goes back 16-years, as it appears there was a largely ethnic element involved and ‘the powers that CONTINUE to be’ in a job, were afraid in that political climate, to be seen as ‘racists’, but why?

I can remember posting when anyone even daring to mention the affects of immigration on housing, jobs and local services were called ‘racist’, sometimes whole posts/threads were deleted on media boards (even the Daily Mail) - while the government of the day, not held to account by the media on their side, were free to continue a ‘multicultural’ agenda they adopted in their first few years they never sought at the ballot box.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2354713/BBC-chief-admits-We-deep-liberal-bias-migrants--changed.html

But as this article points out, the fear of being accused a racist, affected even household conversations.
“Are we all racist now?”
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10860492/Are-we-all-racist-now.html

And the problem with secret sofa government policies, where local authorities and media compliance is key to continued electoral success, is that you can’t be SEEN to raise ethnic issues OR plan ahead for the numbers in homes, healthcare or schools – especially in a 2010 General Election manifesto, in electoral damage limitation mode.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

The 2000’s seem to be a time when our public sector/local government numbers increased enormously, but seemed to both have THEIR OWN POLITICAL agendas, and failed so many vulnerable people, especially children in and out of care.

For no one in Rotherham to take responsibility for what happened to the 1,400 children (we know about), is a national disgrace – that is not good enough.

Why did they need to engage with the Pakistani community though to address the issue? They just needed to arrest the individuals involved.

Yes. This.

'Engaging with the community' rather than just investigating individual crimes would have been the more dubious course, surely?

It is a very different situation to so calld 'honour crime' or 'forced marriages' that have an indisputibly cultural aspect.

Shauns digging his heels in isnt he?

I think some people are trying to divert attention by making this a "PC-gorn-mad" afraid-to-be-racist issue.

It's not. It's an ingrained writing-off-victims attitude. Believing that CHILDREN can make a 'lifestyle-choice' to be raped, and there's no point doing anything about tit. Just horrifying.

YY! AFewFallenLeaves. exactly.

nomdemere but it does has an element of pc used as an excuse not to do your job.

AFewFallenLeaves As a Western Australian, I can confirm that the most-respected ELDER in the Aboriginal community was eventually prosecuted and jailed for systemic abuse within his family and wider tribal community. It was hugely confronting, as he was a very active and politically influential individual. The scale of the Rotherham abuse and the Yewtree investigations dwarfs anything that happened in the very small population of Western Australia, but the same mysoginistic dynamic is at play - men in positions of power ignore the plight of girls and women without status or economic influence. This is regardless of culture, race or geography - it is the same dymanic in Saudi Arabia, India and Sub-Saharan Africa. Women are, statistically speaking, the victim of disproportionately more crime overall, and the victims of a massive majority of sexual crimes.

There is NO excuse for those in public service who's job it is to protect us, especially those vulnerable and/or have had crimes committed against them - as if the social welfare and police 'gatekeepers' turn a political blind eye, especially on behalf of party politics - what hope IS there, as who is left????*

While I definitely think we have come a very long way with women's rights since the Sufragette movement of the early 20th century, there is still much to be done in respect of sexual exploitation of girls and women, as is evidenced by this and other high-profile investigations and issues - from FGM to the gender pay gap, career progression issues to forced marriage. In some areas, in some regions, in some sub-cultures, attitudes clearly remain medieval, and at the root of it all I can only see misogyny, not religion, race or culture. Systemic failures can only occur when there is a widespread weakness in the system, and that to me seems to be gender-based discriminatory attitudes and behaviour.

Gosh - I sound like my 20 year old, lefty-greeny-feminist-placard-carrying student activist self again! I am sorry if this comes across as a bit of a polemic, but as someone who comes from a poor, white background and who was sexually exploited by men of 20+ from the age of 13, this is an issue very, very close to my heart.

Amidst all the understandable outrage (my own included) I'm trying to take a wide view of this whole mess, especially given that one day - and all too son, sadly - this will be "yesterday's news"

For me this is more about entrenched attitudes than individul crimes, and in time I worry that the extreme little Englanders (who luckily we don't see too often on here) will return to blaming everything on "these dreadful foreigners / what else do you expect", the competitive liberals (who sadly we see all too often) will continue insisting race has absolutely nothing to do with it and that everything's being twisted, and the polce, social servces, etc, will maintain that nothing can possibly be their fault - not me guv, oh no, it's those awful cuts innit

For progress to be made calmer heads will have to prevail and attitudes/perceptions will need to be revisited by all, especially those who have come to believe they can dominate the agenda and silence others by shouting the loudest

Frankly, I believe that for some, that woouldn't be very popular ...

Denis MacShane, the disgraced former labour MP for Rotheram: "I didn't want to rock the multicultural boat." What more do you need to know? The damage has been done by the ideology of multiculturalism, a supposed vehicle for prosperity, vibrancy and harmony. What bullshit. Even our police are blinded by liberal dogma and cultural inertia. Meanwhile our white children from the underclass are being raped and no-one gives a shit.

At the end of the day it is disproportionately Pakistani and some other muslim men who are carrying out this type of gang led abuse of vulnerable girls. there is a cultural element, and i believe the combination of Islam and migration to the west with opportunities for this kind of behaviour will in some cases result in rogue elements expressing their cultural misogyny, sexual frustrations and anger at their position in the host country. There have been similar cases in France with north African origin men "les tournantes".
I agree that police, social services etc were ineffectual, and possibly expressing a very unpleasant contempt for a certain slice of white working class society. All the talk on radio 4 today has been about who is going to have to resign. But let's keep it in perspective, it's not SS or the police who are the perpetrators here. The more difficult question to tackle is why certain immigrant populations are giving rise to these despicable men. I will be more inclined to think clemently on the Pakistani population when they openly start to acknowledge the problem and seek solutions. So far, most "community leaders" have preferred to stay quiet on the subject, or hide behind "sexual abuse is prohibited in the Coran, sexual abusers are found in all ethnic groups" type platitudes.

I have heard about an investigation in to a possible gang in Glasgow targeting looked after children in children's homes/foster care. Very vulnerable children with few people to look out for them and very little trust in the system to report anything to.

Excellent post, whataboutbob. May I ask who you are referring to when you say 'a certain slice of white working class society'? It isn't a trick question; I am curious as to why you wouldn't use the term 'underclass'.

I think the term underclass would work just as well here, Pistol.

Actually whataboutbob there are more white grooming gangs in the UK then there are asian grooming gangs and the number of muslim men from other ethnic groups involved in this sort of crime in the UK is negligible.

There is no cultural element to this sort of crime. The ringleaders were a group of men who were pimps that targeted young women and girls whom they identified as vulnerable. They won their trust with a mixture of lies and bribery (again hardly something that is unique to any 'culture'). They sexually exploited the girls and trafficked them to other abusers for their own benefit and profit. They maintained their hold and control over the girls using violence and intimidation. Now what part of their actions has anything to do with culture or is exclusive to any one ethnic group? Earlier another poster linked to an article about a white grooming gang from the North who also sexually exploited a child and the first time I ever heard about grooming gangs was in the context of a white grooming gang that had targeted underage boys and similarly trafficked them to be sexually abused in other towns and cities. They are all criminals pure and simple, culture or religion doesnt play in to it. These sorts of crimes would not disappear from the UK if the asian community were not here and examples of pimps, sex traffickers, child abusers etc can be found in most countries in the world.

You try to link this sort of crime to what some North African gangs have done in France and try to ascribe that to the fact they share the same religion but there are many other things they have in common also which would explain the similarity in their actions. They are both young men, from large immigrant groups in their host country (many more Pakistanis here then North Africans and vice versa), they both live in deprived areas, ghettoes, where there is high unemployment, high crime and little opportunity for social mobility. They both targeted the most vulnerable group of young women in their particular areas. In those sort of conditions I would think this sort of crime would flourish. As they lived in these ghettoes with people from the same ethnic background as them there is more opportunity for them to organise in to criminal groups that are predominately made up of people of a similar background and also find abusers from their same background to use their criminal services. If it was something inherently to do with their culture and religion then why dont you find North African grooming gangs here or Asian grooming gangs in France. Or any other Muslim groups (if this is coming from religion) forming these sorts of gangs? I would argue that its not the immigrant populations per se that are giving rise to these despicable men but the conditions in which they live in which gives abusers within those community the opportunity to form these sorts of organised criminal gangs.

I will be more inclined to think clemently on the Pakistani population when they openly start to acknowledge the problem and seek solutions.

The Pakistani community should not be held collectively responsible for the actions of a few criminals just like any other ethnic group shouldnt have to publicly flagellate themselves because of the crimes of people who happen to share the same race, nationality as them. There are many white European men who travel to the far east to sexually exploit and abuse women and young children. Should you or European community leaders have to apologise for their actions. Is it because of their culture or race that they go and abuse women and children in other countries? So why do you attribute the actions of these grooming gangs to their particular culture or race. Its unrealistic to expect the Pakistani community to have to police itself. This was not a matter for community leaders to deal with it was a matter for the police as these people committed a crime. A responsibility they neglected for 15-16 years which lead to the abuse of 1400 girls. If it was an asian gang committing credit card fraud, tax evasion, drug trafficking or burglary do you think they would have ignored it because of fears of racism. Would you still expect the Pakistani community to have to apologise for their actions if they were committing these sorts of crimes?

As for cultural misogyny I do not think there is any culture in the world which is free of misogyny unfortunately and that applies here just as much as anywhere else in the world. I would argue that any sexual crime against women whether it is assault, harassment, child abuse or rape where the perpetrator thinks his sexual gratification is more important than the consent of the victim they are abusing is an example of misogyny.

This was not a matter for community leaders to deal with

And yet a previous poster mentioned that there have been cases where such leaders have asked to do precisely that ...

Hmm still no word at all from the pakistani community.... you'd think they'd be more self aware.

I think Mumsnet as a credible opinion former should use its influence to encourage politician to enforce legislation , with clear roles, responsibilities and penalties for the convicted. Ps. Do not label the perpetrators as Asian. They are Muslims, and it is so conspicuous how leaders of the com.unity he kep quiet.

Puzzled I havent read anything that has suggested that the wider pakistani community or leaders knew anything about the grooming (other than those who were directly involved or who worked for the authorities) let alone that they asked to deal with it. If you have seen something that suggests otherwise then please point me towards the evidence. Another poster said that crimes that have an undeniable cultural element to them e.g. forced marriages or fgm should be dealt with by engaging the communities that are concerned and I agree with her. CSA is not a crime specific or exclusive to any one culture it is unacceptable to everyone so tackling it does not require input from any one community.

Is it part of a wider picture whereby poor white people (here, girls, as part of that category) are at the bottom of a class system which is alive and well?
news.tes.co.uk/b/news/2014/08/27/britain-still-quot-deeply-elitist-quot-as-privately-educated-dominate-top-jobs.aspx

I havent read anything that has suggested that the wider pakistani community or leaders knew anything about the grooming ... let alone that they asked to deal with it

I'm doing my best to find it, peacefuloptimist; it was definitely a post on here and on this subject, but there's a great deal to plough through now

In the meantime, a lady called Parveen Qureshi is repoted to have told BBC Sheffield: 'The Asian community leaders, they knew about it, it was discussed at the mosque and other places" though apparently she later claimed she meant to say "council workers" rather than "asian community leaders" Hmmmmmmm ...

It's horrifying (if not completely surprising) how those girls have been repeatedly failed, over and over, by so many people, on such a large scale. I think there is a disproportionate amount of Pakistani and immigrant (or second gen) grooming gangs, although equally there are a lot formed by white non immigrants too. But they tend to be from fairly poor areas with little opportunities, leading to them being disaffected, and in a culture where this is allowed to continue- often because their families can excuse it because of deep, internal beliefs (eg white girls are easily led, they were asking for it, they preyed on the men, they were teens and knew what they were doing and so on). And although the white girl idea is not what the white groomers and rapists will be thinking (necessarily), they will most likely still come from a background where those other ideas are believed. Of course that isn't where all, or even close to all, will come from, but it creates a breeding ground where an abuser can excuse themselves, find people who are similar and work to groom and abuse and create a community where the abuse is minimised or ignored.

I don't think the 'Pakistani community' should have to speak out. They are not the abusers or even close, they only share a birthplace and ethnicity. Blaming what happened on innocent people is wrong. But I would expect people within the Rotherham community- including maybe those who knew the perpetrators through mosque and who are Pakistani Muslim- to speak out, because people would have seen the young girls with grown men, they would have seen, even a tiny snapshot, of what was happening, but enough to know it wasn't right. And presumably, they kept on walking and allowing abuse to happen. I wouldn't say they were necessarily perpetrators, as it is quite possible they felt the police and SS wouldn't listen (correctly) or for cultural reasons felt they couldn't speak out, but they aren't innocent either.

There was a Pakistani lady on Yorkshire news last night who said there were Asian girls also targetted by the gangs. There was also a man speaking on behalf of 'muslim youth Rotherham' and he said the gangs are criminal, no-one should use politicla correctness as an excuse not to prosecute.

One mother interviewed said she even gave car number plates to the police when she found out her daughter was a victim. She felt she was labelled a crap single mother & nothing was followed up.

You don't think the pakistani community needs to speak out? This crime , this hugely organized crime across about 20 years in such a small town 50 per cent rural and such a huge disproportionate amount of an ethnic minority ...yes someone does need to im afraid the fact that they haven't shows their comtempt to the victims.

PeacefulOptimist, I can well believe that these cases of grooming of vulnerable girls are influenced by socio economic factors, but just don't feel prepared to walk away from the conclusion that religion and culture play an important part too. So far we have had cases involving Asian, mostly Pakistani men collectively grooming large numbers of vulnerable white girls in Derby, Rochdale, Oxford and Rotherham over years. Just looking at it mathematically, in terms of population numbers and for it not to be linked to culture and religion we would need to hear of a multitude of cases involving gangs of white men grooming large numbers girls in care all over the country. I am also unaware of gangs of Hindu, Chinese, Orthodox Jewish etc men preying on underage girls.
Of course misogyny is found all around the world. However, when you have a religion that explicitly states "God made man superior to woman" and then goes on to outline all the ways in which women are legally less entitled than men, and a culture (Pakistani) that sees virginity until marriage as the number one attribute of a woman, which if lost can justify contempt and abuse, then I do think you are laying possible foundations for abuse of women and girls who fall outside this ideal.
If you look at the world economic forum's gender gap report, you will see that just about all the countries in the bottom 10 are Muslim. And this does not just correlate with income, they are below many poorer but non muslim nations.
This is a difficult thing for some communities to face, that their attitudes to women and sex are in part laying the groundwork for this abuse. So far, it seems the Pakistani community has not been too keen to do so.