Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

I think it is important to consider the role of Hamas in this. It is crucial to understanding the nature of Israel's counterpart in any peace process, not to mention establishing the role of Hamas in contributing to civilian deaths.

Have a read here: www.forbes.com/sites/richardbehar/2014/08/21/the-media-intifada-bad-math-ugly-truths-about-new-york-times-in-israel-hamas-war/

It's long, but I think that's preferable to a shallow soundbite any way. The journalist is highly regarded.

Did you hear that Israeli missile sensors have detected rockets being fired from Gaza earlier this week? None have landed in Israeli territory (although civilians were evacuated) so it has been surmised that they were weapon tests. Looks like Hamas is preparing to resume hostilities.

I think it is important to consider that Hamas has no role whatsoever in causing Israel to consistently increase the number and size of Illegal Settlements in the Occupied Territories, and the continuing theft of homes and lands on ethnic and religious criteria, from people who are not Jews.

i think it is important to consider the context in which hamas arose and what it arose to counter.

did you forget to retract the 'they were firing from a hospital' statement?

You can watch that program here i hope i have linked it right.

It is about an hour and a half. One of the former head of shin bet basically compared Israel to the Nazis. Another one said that the what they see in their job turns tgem into a lefty when they leave. I know lefty is a dirty word in Israel right now.

Another guy said that they need palestinian informants to get their intelligence. He said that people who never thought that they would ever be informants find themselves in that position. It made me wonder about all the dirty tactics used to turn them into collaborators.

All of the former heads basically agreed that the only way forward is to talk.

A poignant thing was that one former head said that Israel wins every battle but loses the war.

Hurrah for the vote tonight!

transcript

BBC News

The vote might be little more than symbolic and have very little immediate impact but for the first time I heard MPs speaking, in an informed and sympathetic way, about the plight of the Palestinians, about the need to stop Israel acting with impunity, about us having the responsibility and ability to prevent the Americans from permitting this ongoing injustice etc. Something big has changed. At long last. Happy even tho my MP was in the 'dirty dozen'. Published in haaretz within minutes of the count. No doubt elsewhere round the world, too. Cameron probably on the phone reassuring Obama he's got it all in hand even as I write this. Hurrah indeed.

Some amazing speeches. Sad we don't get to hear from many of those MPs day to day, see them on Question Time, hear them on the radio etc. That's an aside to this thread though but I was really struck by some of the amazing speeches from all sides.

I wonder where/if we can see how all MPs voted? I was v surprised in the summer that my old (Conservative) MP was so furious about the treatment of the Palestinians.

Another aside really but towards the end a number of women made great speeches. How crap is it that we have to put up with dreary robotic types being put up on the news all the time instead of these fiery and impassioned women!

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/10/former-tory-minister-alan-duncan-condemns-wicked-cocktail-israel-s-settlements

disgusted that all ministers including the prime minister 'abstained'

Springheeled, for details of who voted how see www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141013/debtext/141013-0004.htm
Scroll down for lists of ayes and noes. See also Jeremy Corbyn's point of order at the end of these lists on the pathetic attempt to invalidate the vote by not putting up tellers for noes. Well done all who petitioned their MPs. And let's keep the boycott going strong. I believe there's another Block the Boat action on 25th Oct, too.

My MP voted in favour. He's being really good at sending out email updates about what he's doing in answer to many constituent enquiries about Israel & Palestine.

TheHoneyBadger it's Parliamentary convention that ministers abstain from voting on backbencher motions.

symbolic or not it is something! to those who reckoned we were all pointless extremists i would like to politely say ftfo! well done to everyone who has written to and where needed badgered their MP and taken part on marches etc.

just have to keep going.

My MP couldn't vote as he is a minister (though i badgered him anyway). He is supportive of the motion though and has at least written to the Foreign Affairs Minister, supporting the recognition of Palestine.

It was also good to hear from him that quite a number of his constituents have been contacting him about Palestine (most people here only care about wind turbines) so i'm glad that i haven't been a lone voice. He was quite clear that the UK's recognition of Israel in 1950 did not depend upon negotiations, and neither should the recognition of Palestine. He's also been raising questions about arms sales to Israel.

Writing a letter or sending an email is such a small thing to do, and it can feel so pointless, but this vote at least shows that we can have an effect, even in a small way, if enough people care. Well done Grahame Morris.

I was surprised and pleased by the result of the debate, even though nothing was said (from either side) that we didn't already know.

It's interesting that only about half the MPs turned up. Probably wrong to speculate on the reasons for the absentees.

I suppose that, like Apartheid South Africa, the State of Israel will just harden its attitude and convince itself that it is surrounded by prejudice and hostility.

See also Jeremy Corbyn's point of order at the end of these lists on the pathetic attempt to invalidate the vote by not putting up tellers for noes.

Nothing like democratically elected representatives attempting to derail a democratic process. I'm not sure of this but i think if there had been no tellers for one side then the other side is automatically awarded the debate, but we wouldn't then be able to see who would have voted in support or against. I wondered if the large numbers of abstainers was also an attempt to discredit the vote.

abstainers are utter cowards who don't deserve our mandate imo. you are elected to represent your constituents. if you cba or put your career ahead of doing so you should be dismissed imo.

vote turn outs in general are abysmal. way too many mps getting paid to do nothing.

I wondered why George Galloway abstained - his reasons here.

I knew I didn't like George Galloway. His post uses deliberately inflammatory and anti-Semitic language. It's not for British politicians to decide on state borders or the right of return for refugees either.

Miaow.

972 magazine reports here that hundreds of Israeli public figures, academics, former ministers and Israel Prize laureates signed a public letter supporting the motion - although unfortunately the chairman of Israel's Labor party opposed it.

Agreed, George Galloway disappoints and dismays at times as much as he fires up and gets it spot on at others. Rather an ultra leftist position and ill willed.
My MP couldn't bring himself to turn up and vote- pathetic