Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

*previous, not precious

I wonder why you asked your amusing question then.

david sheen's testimony on the discourse within israel and the mainstream nature of calls for genocide and incitement to genocide is unsurprising and blows off this nonsense that it's a few extremists equivalent to the bnp. this is a widespread mainstream tolerance and lust for genocide.

thanks so much for the heads up on the russell tribunal - i hope to god their findings can have some influence.

Yes, the russell tribunal is a wonderful thing. War crimes must be accounted for, no matter who commits them them.

David Sheen's testimony was fascinating. Paul Mason's was even handed and interesting. I have yet to watch the rest- no time at the moment. It made me sad- when Paul Mason talked about how people used to work and sleep next to each other and now they are 'othering' each other, so sad.

I also wonder why kerenins was so amused by the whereabouts of Palestine and wasn't aware of Israel's status as an occupying force. Not sure which myths you are trying to debunk. Somebody else tried to earlier create myths about Israel by claiming it was some sort of a haven for human rights and for African refugees and gay Palestinians!

“Israel has crossed the threshold from ‘the only democracy in the Middle East’ to the only apartheid regime in the Western world.” - Henry Siegman, Rabbi and director of the U.S./Middle East Project.

watching the testimony it was quite clear that this wasn't a minority demand for vengence or a small extremist movement but a very mainstream, very popularist, nationwide uprising demanding palestinian blood. that is so disturbing.

I realise this debate has moved on (after a fashion!) but QnBoudi took the trouble to write a long post addressed to me, so I am going to respond.

"You have a clear sense that Israel is really facing an existential threat and you hold an unequivocal belief that everyone is determined to annihilate israel. E.g. you stated that palestinians, before and after the formation of hamas have been singularly focused on wiping out Israel and you claimed that pro Palestinians on this thread want Israel to 'cease to exist'." - Yes, the responses to my challenge pretty much said 'no more Jewish state'. How casually they dispensed with Jewish nationalism whilst championing Palestinian nationalism! I support a two state solution.
"You fiercely believe that lifting the blockade on Gaza would only lead to Israel's destruction through the rearming of hamas." Not fiercely. But strongly suspect. The blockade was imposed in response to intercepting heavy weaponry sent by sea from Iran. I can understand Israel wanting to prevent that. They reluctantly let concrete imports through the blockade which were used not to for rebuilding but construction of terror tunnels. Where's the trust to lift the blockade in those circumstances.
"You adhere to the narrative that Israel had to defend itself against a significant arab coalition threat in 67." Yes I do. But I think the key to peace is for Israel is to retreat to pre-67 borders.
"You believe that people have blamed the Jews for their own persecution over the last 2000 years." There have been some clumsy comments by some individuals, yes. But I think they were ignorant rather than pointed.
"You stated that if Palestinians were given the right to return, they would rapidly become the ruling majority, israel would be 'eliminated' and Jews become the 'persecuted minority'. Again." I don't want either side to have a shit deal. I really don't. I think a two state solution is better than one state where one side oppresses the other (put whichever side you wish into that statement).
"You clearly believe that Israel is truly a democratic, tolerant society, where all faiths, races and ethnic or other minorities have equal rights, both under the law and in practice." By and large, Israel does a magnificent job on these counts. Especially considering that one of the major minorities is in a state of bitter existential war against them. I accept that there is much more hardship and injustice in the occupied territories, partly by nature of them being militarily occupied, and I hope and pray for a peaceful end to the occupation.
"All these beliefs seem to justify the mass and indiscriminate murder of hundreds of women, children, elderly and men of a certain age. And for razing their property. And destroying their infrastructure. And for imposing a brutal blockade which strangles their economy and for maintaining inhumane military control over a captive population etc etc. " What??? You think I support mass and indiscriminate murder?? Gloves off or what!!
"I hope I haven't misrepresented you, though you may feel some of the wording is loaded." Blooming 'eck, what do you call that last comment?
"SM, you said you feel pro Palestinian posters on this thread are determined to annihilate Israel. But you finally acknowledged that no one had actually said such a thing - you qualified this as being 'not in so many words' though you 'believed' it to be the case. " They qualified it in their own words, not as annhilation, but more as simply ceasing to exist. Thanks a bunch.
"You refused to respond to the suggestion that there is an alternative view (ie that expressed very forcefully by miko peled) to your own (unquestioningly following the party line) understanding of a savage all-powerful Arab coalition determined to crush Israel (both now and historically)." It is fact that many Arab states refuse to accept Israel's very existence, are in an actual state of war with Israel (albeit in a military pause), that they supply arms to those such as Hamas, who are explicitly pledged to crushing Israel. And refuse to allow Jews across their borders.
"Nor have you offered a rationale for the hamas stance to the Israeli state." Err, funny that you ask me to defend Hamas. (Your usual task, no?). But yes, I understand that the Palestinians have a reasonable and justifiable claim to a state of their own and remain aggrieved at their wretched situation. I do not however support Hamas's stance to Israel. I hope and pray for a Palestinian government to resume negotiations for a peaceful settlement. Don't you?
" i can only think of some kind of racist explanation for such a view, so would appreciate an insight into your thinking on this." Well think again! It's an offensive and unjustified misrepresentation.
"You've dismissed evidence that anti Semitism is less pervasive than anti Arab racism, on the grounds that it is based on a 'meaningless' comparison, seemingly because one set of data was about a smaller minority (Jews) in a 'more accepting' country (USA). Surely that would make the racism an even more extreme phenomenon??" I thought your data was flimsy and twisted. Let's face it, how can we meaningfully compare hatred of two different groups? I am against anti-anyone racism.
"You've utterly failed to counter reams of very strong evidence for widespread racism and unequal treatment of Arab Israelis and other minority groups by large numbers of israelis, including many in positions of authority. " I'm not in a position to. I stick to facts and personal experience. I am against racism and unequal treatment. Equally, this thread utterly fails to accept the equality legislation and superior democratic rights experienced by Arab Israelis in the state of Israel.
"In supporting your views, you've dismissed evidence by claiming it is simply representative of only a very small extremist minority (akin to a BNP view) or by making sweeping statements about source credibility - but without ever explaining specifically which sources are unreliable and exactly why they are not to be believed." I feel the same about the other side. Hugely selective in what is credible and what isn't, depending on our standpoint (do we have more in common that we think?!)
"As mothers, would any of you use your children as human shields? If not, why on earth would a palestinian?" There is increasing testimony that Hamas enforced the civilian sacrifice, preventing citizens fleeing from sites, where Israelis warned a strike was imminent. Dissenters are publicly executed.It disgusts me and it should you too.

Thank you, sergeant, for your response. Many interesting comments, which I'dlike to follow up on. Sorry, am on a device where cutting and pasting is not an easy option, so you might need to look back to the original. Not ideal, sorry.

Did anyone say 'no more jewish state'? I think people actually said 'no more Jewish state that behaves illegally, disproportionately and with impunity'. Not the same thing at all.

You have a'strong suspicion' that Gazawithout blockade would lead to Hamas destroying israel . I compare that 'suspicion' to the well documented israeli destruction over several years of homes, school, shops, hospitals, farms, factories, roads, power station etc etc. Add to that the long slow strangulation through years of blockading which has undermined the mental, physical, emotional, social, cultural, financial, educational and economic landscape in Gaza.

Your statement that Israel does 'a magnificent job' on democracy/equal rights etc is a lot more balanced than your earlier claims that it's a paragon of virtue and a refuge for Palestinian gays. However, I'm reminded of the dissertation i wrote (in the 1980s, mind!) About soviet law, which ostensibly laid out all sorts of rights for Jews wishing to emigrate from the ussr. My work looked at how these 'enshrined rights' were not practiced in reality. My point is the same here: don'tbelieve it just cois its written down.

You got most upset when I said that 'all these beliefs SEEM TO justify...'. So, are you saying that Israel's killing of c1500 civilians is not acceptable? If so, I apologise, but I haven't heard that come through in your posts - I've only heard what APPEARS TO BE justification by way of the Hamas threat etc.

Re Israel's 'annihilation', I have elsewhere drawn a distinction between 'an israel' and 'this Israel'. I'm not talking theoretically, but cannot support THIS state which uses its very significant military and political might to oppress a population in ensuring its own existence continues.

You still haven't engaged with peled's alternative view. The point he makes is that the Arabs have never presented a genuine military threat. See also the quotes iIposted from rRabin and Begin. This is just another manifestation of the difference beteen a 'suspicion' of a hamas threat contrasted with actual IDF operations.

Re hhamas, Iddidn't ask you to defend them. I asked what you think their rationale, ie their reasoning, is. Surely to resolve the issue, you need to understand this? Don't you think its connected to the notion of 'a' vs 'this version' of israel?

On antisemitism, pls explain why you say my data is 'flimsy and twisted'. I'mnot so much trying to compare hatred of 2 groups as trying to put into perspective the apparent argument that iIsraelibrutality is necessary/justified by the degree of antisemitism in the world. I ddon'tthink it is, or even could be, even if it was worse than any other form of racism.

As for providing evidence, you ddon'thave to be an expert on everything and able to counter everybody's arguments in detail. No one does. But if you're going to profess strong opinions, they should be based on something, and when others challenge those with ample contrary evidence, you can'tjust turn your head away and stick to your old claims! Or at least you ccan'tdo that and still hold credibility.

Finally, please direct me to some of the 'increasing testimony' (but none of this 'Mr X says...' stuff which would not stand up in a court of law!) on Hamas'suse of human shields. II'vejust watched Ivan Karakashian's harrowing presentation at the Russelltribunal (thanks for that link) where he gives very specific, documented evidence for IDF use of human shields, incl kids of 9 and toddlers!!! I'm only aware of reporters stating categorically that they have no evidence - from the ground - for such claims for Hama's. However, Israelhas long seemed happy to spread this rumour around, as witness the email received by journalist peter stefanovic in gaza during the bombardment.

m very pleased to be able to engage with sargeant on pertinent issues rather than dodging the mud flinging others seem to enjoy. Looking fwd to yr reply :) p.s. sorry bout the typos.

And yes, public executions are disgusting. As is targetted assassination of anyone, pouring petrol down a kid's throat then setting fire to him, or 'just' leafleting a neighbourhood to tell them to run but forbidding 7 individuals in one family from leaving the home that's going to be bombed... I won't go on, there are umpteen examples in the testimony from the Russell tribunal.

Going to a funeral on Tuesday. I'm struggling to see how you could cope with the grief and loss when its compounded by knowing the dead didn't just expire in their 80s, very peacefully, surrounded by all mod cons and loved ones. What strength those palestinians mourning the thousands of dead must have to cope in addition with the knowledge that their losses were most likely also painful and wholly unnecessary.

I am sorry for your loss QnB.
I can't reply in full at present but will do so when I get a moment later this week.

Jews against Genocide take the blood bucket challenge

Brave thing to do.

those who are saying israel is not racist and the 'death to arabs' and sitting on hills drinking kegs and cheering air strikes and the beating protestors on the streets etc people are a small minority should please watch this video and either change your view or justify it please, explain to us how this is all lies or wrong.

david sheen's testimony to the russell tribunal please watch it and tell me how wrong it is and why. i would actually LOVE to believe this wasn't true.

i'm getting through the russell testimonies very slowly because i just can't process more than one at a time itms. it is TOO much to take on. the people speaking and many people on this thread seem like normal human beings to me, with normal minds, hearts, consciences and rational reasoning. my brain and my stomach can't process that that 'normality' isn't universal and that there are sizable amounts of people who just don't care or who feel no qualms or think this madness is justifiable.

i have proper wtf moments where i can't take it on that i live in a world where the murdering of civilians with military equipment befitting world war III is seen as ok or anything short of monstrous and.... it is madness and it is evil madness. what kind of world are we living and how different can human beings be? how can there be people who cheer at the deaths of children? how can there be governments in the so called civilised world who provide the money and weaponry to slaughter those children?

my friend on the other side of the world died yesterday, i suspect it was intentional as he was so broken by losing his wife to cancer last year. i'm not cross at him, i don't blame him but i am very heavy and sad about it. but in a world where it's ok to murder children in their beds or at school or in hospitals - defenseless children blown to smitherines by military bombs - it's a wonder we don't all despair. i understand my friend not being able to live anymore after seeing the love of his life through the hell of cancer and unsuccessful treatments and being left without her. how on earth do people who have watched their families, homes and lives be destroyed by an occupying force go on? i think that does qualify as miraculous.

QnBoudi, I hope today was okay for you.
Answering your points here... I'll do it in parts cos, together with the quoting, it gets awfully long.

"Did anyone say 'no more jewish state'? I think people actually said 'no more Jewish state that behaves illegally, disproportionately and with impunity'." Actually there was support for one single encompassing state, no more Jewish state, dismissed just like that. My hunch was right. Those championing the Palestinian cause on this thread don't wish to see a future with Israel in it. Do I take it from your comment that you support a Jewish state in the region (borders adjustable, acting impeccably) alongside a Palestinian one?

"You have a'strong suspicion' that Gazawithout blockade would lead to Hamas destroying israel . I compare that 'suspicion' to the well documented israeli destruction over several years of homes, school, shops, hospitals, farms, factories, roads, power station etc etc." I compare the suffering of the Gazans during the blockade with a nuclear winter in Israel if just one shipment gets through from Iran. There was NO blockade until arms shipments were intercepted. Israel was actually building up the Gazan airport and seaport with the US in the immediate aftermath of their withdrawal.

"Add to that the long slow strangulation through years of blockading which has undermined the mental, physical, emotional, social, cultural, financial, educational and economic landscape in Gaza." Yes, it is totally shit for the Gazans. But it is a two way street. Every time that Hamas lobs over another missile bound for Israeli cities (and it is always Hamas that breaks the ceasefire), any chance of rebuilding trust is shattered. Would you lift a blockade on a nation dedicated to your annihilation?

"Your statement that Israel does 'a magnificent job' on democracy/equal rights etc is a lot more balanced than your earlier claims that it's a paragon of virtue and a refuge for Palestinian gays." Why not Google 'Tel Aviv Pride'? Look at Google Images for the same search. See if you can find anything comparable anywhere else in the middle east. I doubt you would find any Israeli Arab gays moving to the West Bank in the event of a proper Palestinian state there.

"...My point is the same here: don'tbelieve it just cois its written down." I have been to Israel and the West Bank. I am not taking it as read. I have spoken to Arab Muslim, Arab Christian, Druze and Jewish Israelis. I do not doubt that there is discrimination in Israel itself (also against very religious Jews by the secular majority). But think, there are two groups who are currently engaged in a live, ferocious, territorial war, and they are living side by side. In this context, the whole terminology of racism seems hopelessly misplaced. (In the UK in WW2, any German nationals who had fled Hitler were imprisoned in a camp on the Isle of Man. Not racist, two sides at war). But this is almost beside the point given that Israeli Arabs can and do challenge their discrimination under the law and win. Soviet Russia it ain't.

QnBoudi - part 2 of my reply...

"You got most upset when I said that 'all these beliefs SEEM TO justify...'. So, are you saying that Israel's killing of c1500 civilians is not acceptable? If so, I apologise, but I haven't heard that come through in your posts - I've only heard what APPEARS TO BE justification by way of the Hamas threat etc." - Actually you suggested that I supported mass murder. Which I don't. As well as suggesting that I think murder and innocent deaths are justified. Which I don't. Not sure how you inferred that. But I don't see Israel as the sole perpetrator of the deaths of Palestinians. Israel does not operate in a vacuum. Operation Protective Edge came in response to months of Hamas rockets, to literally thousands of missiles. Half of Israel's population spent every night in a bomb shelter last summer. Hamas did not construct any shelters for its people, instead building shelters for its weaponry. Hamas did not have to fire any missiles, but when it did, it did not have to embed them amidst schools and hospitals. Do not treat Hamas as powerless agents. I feel Hamas shares at least half the blame for the deaths of the Gazans. Btw, Hamas decides who is a civilian or a militant when reporting the deaths. The UN regurgitates these figures verbatim. Al Jazeera has challenged reported deaths that have been counted as civilians, not least due to the disproportionate numbers of young men of fighting age amongst the victims. No Gazan militants wore uniform during hostilities, all fought wearing civilian dress, the uniforms only came out for the 'victory parade'.

"Re Israel's 'annihilation', I have elsewhere drawn a distinction between 'an israel' and 'this Israel'. I'm not talking theoretically, but cannot support THIS state which uses its very significant military and political might to oppress a population in ensuring its own existence continues." Are you a closet Zionist then? I can see other ways for Israel to exist, without oppression of anyone, but they rely on building trust with the Palestinians, leading toward a peaceful settlement.

"You still haven't engaged with peled's alternative view. The point he makes is that the Arabs have never presented a genuine military threat. See also the quotes iIposted from rRabin and Begin. This is just another manifestation of the difference beteen a 'suspicion' of a hamas threat contrasted with actual IDF operations." Seems like a catch-22 to me. If Israel is weak, it is obliterated. If it is strong, it is vilified and loses international support. If it tries to avoid direct engagement, by installing fences and blockades, it is also vilified. Are you saying that Israel should allow Hamas to shell its cities? I am not being deliberately obtuse here. You need to help me out a bit on this one. I'll go back and re-read peled in a minute.

"Re hhamas, Iddidn't ask you to defend them. I asked what you think their rationale, ie their reasoning, is. Surely to resolve the issue, you need to understand this? Don't you think its connected to the notion of 'a' vs 'this version' of israel?" No, I don't think it is connected to 'a' vs 'this version'. At all. I take Hamas at their word when they say their aim is wipe out every Jew from the region and worldwide. That they want to reclaim all the land for Palestinians. That they will not tolerate a Jewish state on that soil, "from the river to the sea". Regardless of whether that state was faultless or not. I do not think that they are partners for peace. I could believe in negotiations with Abbas, or the Gazans with a different leadership. The Hamas way is not the only way for the Palestinians. Can't you envisage a better path for the Palestinian leadership?

"On antisemitism, pls explain why you say my data is 'flimsy and twisted'. I'mnot so much trying to compare hatred of 2 groups as trying to put into perspective the apparent argument that iIsraelibrutality is necessary/justified by the degree of antisemitism in the world. I ddon'tthink it is, or even could be, even if it was worse than any other form of racism." No brutality justifies any other type of brutality. That was never the argument. The argument is that deep-rooted and long-standing anti-semitism worldwide is one of the potent reasons that the Jewish people want their own homeland.This year has seen a significant migration of Jews from France, settling in Israel. Surprising to move from peaceful Paris to a war zone? They decided that if their back is going to be against the wall, at least in Israel they can defend themselves.

I'll come to your remaining points in a mo'

I have been lurking since the first of these threads.
Someone made a suggestion that someone actually visits Gaza so I thought that I'd speak up.
I have stayed in Gaza twice. I have also spent a lot of time in wb. Including this year.

Arabella, thank you for posting. I really would like to know about your experience in gaza and also West Bank. What is every day life like there in your experience? I have a pretty good idea from what i have read and my friends who have told me about their own experiences but I have found other peoples experiences very informative and would love to hear about your experience too if you don't mind sharing.

I'd advise you to follow Chris Gunness. He was BBC correspondent to UN in first Gulf War and is pretty hardened. He is now in charge of picking up the pieces. I've known him for 24 years.
Answer to your question? It was grim. Now it is way beyond grim.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that is a holocaust on scale of ww2; that would disrespect the victims of the holocaust. But it is mightily like the ghettoisation of the 1930s. Try spending five hours in Yad Vishem and then visiting De Heisha.

I will never forget the heartbreaking footage of Chris Gannon crying. I am following him on twitter now. Just had to google yad visham and dheisha. The former is a holocaust museum and the latter is a palestinian refugee camp. From what I read, the suffering of Palestinians is very similar to the suffering of jews in ghettos. It makes me so sick and angry.

I wonder if Israel will some day wake up and feel ashamed of the way it has treated the Palestinians.i am so glad that mahmoud abbas spoke at the UN of the Israeli atrocities rained down on helpless people. The world hasn't forgotten the murdering, the maiming, the UN school bombings, the hospital bombings, the children targeting, Israel's response to Abbas? 'This is not how a peace partner talks'! I mean wtf???

3 idf soldiers who fought in Gaza commit suicide The article states that army who fought in shujaiya have had medical corps talk to them. Shujaiya was basically a massacre and a war crime. The suicides make me wonder what these soldiers witnessed.

Vad Vishem is way beyond a 'museum'. It is a permanent monument for the world. All Israeli schoolchildren and soldiers are taken there. The point of it is that humanity knows that horror on that level of evil should never happen again.

and yet....

it's mystifying really.

humanity knows that should never happen again and yet there seems to be a section of israeli society who just thinks it should never happen to jews again. i was shocked to see that holocaust survivors who have spoken out against recent israeli actions have been condemned as traitors.