Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!

Thread 5

Online reports from electronic intifada suggest israel wants to launch another ground invasion. I really hope this isn't true. I can't understand why no one anywhere seems to be doing something, anything to stop israel obliterating palestine.

What is the crime of all the innocent civilians and babies? Punished collectively over and over and over again.

I downloaded the buycott app and have realised I need to change my dc's follow on milk. I wish I had downloaded it earlier!

I don't get why twitter tells me that bombings are continuous and yet the news now seems to say nothing?

Yes, Springheeled, has Channel4 now been 'got at'/threatened/frightened off, too?

On education, v scary article about a book looking into the racist attitudes amongst teens. Take a deep breath before reading. m.forward.com/articles/204563/israeli-teens-gripped-by-virulent-racism/? And get someone to pinch you afterwards. Or is this not real????

Goldvelvet thanks for the prompt re buycott app. Thought I was quite switched on in terms of what I should buy/not but having done some cursory scanning around the house, i'll need to find a fair few alternatives and be much more careful when putting things in my basket from now on!

Woah, that report is very real qnboudi. Israel seems like a deeply unpleasant place to be living in. Enlightened, free democracy it certainly is not!

Claig, thanks for answering my question regarding horrible woman. Still doesnt justify her horrible behaviour , she obviously doesnt have any doubt!

HoneyBadger, I hope my post didnt come across as minimising what you went through in Israel. That wasnt my intention. Your experience was truly awful. I just meant that if they treat Westerners, who are supposed to be their 'allies' like shit, then you can only imagine how horrendous the treatment meted out to Palestinians would be. In fact, we dont have to imagine it, maami told us about one such experience which I think was pretty shocking.

About the buycott app, i cant buy huggies, water wipes or any disney products! Need to change my baby shopping habits. Coca Cola is a no no but Pepsi is ok!

Last post for tonight... Another example of premature finger pointing in an effort to justify excess. theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/israel-admits-mortar-bomb-not-fired-un-school?CMP=twt_gu. Really all about slinging as much mud as possible to make sure some sticks.

it isn't in the bible though - both christians and jews are meant to believe that it is god who gives back israel and draws back his scattered peoples from across the earth - not war. for jews it is the coming of the messiah, for christians the second coming. zionism and it's achievement by man is actually very very far from biblical.

i have noticed though that half the most zealously religious people haven't even read the bible/their holy text.

i like those quotes on faith being trust not certainty claig, thanks for sharing them.

wondering if i dare read the report on racism amongst israeli teens.

I think it is in Daniel and/or the Revelation as prophecy and talks about Jews returning to Israel

Barry Smith was a well known New Zealand preacher who did talk about this.

Apologies for off topic comment on Christian preacher Barry Smith.

Barry Smith was a Christian preacher who delivered stuff in an amusing, interesting manner. But Barry knew all about the New World Order conspiracy and wrote lots of books on what they were all up to. I very much doubt that Barry would have held the misguided belief and understanding of the aggressive Bible Prophecy believing woman, because she does not understand and cannot see the whole picture.

Some of the End of Days type preachers have been infiltrated or misled. Lots of conspiracy theories about that and about why. That aggressive woman is just a dupe because she doesn't understand it.

Barry believed in the Bible, but he also understood the New World Order.

is it off topic Claig?

I have the books upstairs and went to hear him speak a long time ago. very interesting whatever your take on Christianity

I think the Israel situation is spiritual to some extent. Jerusalem is a holy place for 3 major religions.

take your point about the ranting women .how to win friends etc....

As far as I know, Muslims also believe in an End of Days scenario and the coming of a false prophet or (false prophets), similar in some sense to the coming of the Anti-Christ etc - which Barry would have seen as being part of the unfolding of a predestined New World Order sequence of events.

But, many Christians who believe this stuff have been duped by the New World Order. You must remember that the New Word Order were not born yesterday or they would not be where they are now.

However, this is an area which requires a lot more indepth study before being qualified to gain a true understanding of what the heck is going on. Unfortunately my expertise in this field is not of the level that it should be, due to not having the time to get to the bottom if it. I've got to find time to pay the bills, alas.

I know, had a quick look at books but again things to do

I read a "thought" article recently which made the point that it is not the job of a "secular" government to act in a moral way, but to maximise the benefit to its citizens. I don't agree, but this bit seems true:

"The government of Israel has one of the rarest national opportunities in history. Thanks to periodic rocket strikes and other ongoing aggression against them, Israel gets a semi-free pass from the international community to gobble up disputed lands and substantially increase the size of their future nation. In such a situation, the secular government of Israel that is chartered with maximizing the wellbeing of its citizens is wisely using the attacks against them as a political cover while they exert control over disputed land and water resources. If a secular government ignored this historic opportunity it would not be acting the way the system was designed to act. "

There is a theory that Christian Zionism has been hijacked for political ends and that its millions of adherents, particularly in the US, have been duped to follow political objectives that lead to the kind of aggression and misunderstanding that led to that aggressive woman berating the old man at the Gaza protest stand.

Where did that article come from PigletJohn, because it is basically either supporting immoral actions by saying that a "secular" government should act immorally because that is the way things are or it is a religious site that is arguing that secular states are necessarily immoral because secular states have no moral restraints.

In both cases, the argument is wrong, because all actions have consequences and acting immorally often ends up leading to worse consequences than acting morally over the long run.

i'm just always reminded of the, 'but we called out demons in your name' image from the bible and their shock and horror at being struck down as the chaff and the saved being the ones they assumed were the damned. if you want to go to the bible route it predicts this kind of inversion and the demonised being the 'body' whilst the 'pharisees' believe themselves to be god's people.

claig i've spent some time looking at the various interpretations and hijacking and contemporising (made up word i know) of revelations and daniel. so much of modern events fits but can be, and is, interpreted in diverse ways.

for some reason though it is that image of the self righteous being struck down and their horror at discovering who was saved that sticks with me. that and the old, 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.

it never ceases to amaze me how clear the messages in religious teachings are and how stridently the religious align themselves with the practices and attitudes that are spelled out clearly as wrong.

anyway. perhaps this is all way of track.

the other one that sticks with me is 'i have other flocks to tend to' which is always read as meaning the gentiles but that never rang true to me. to me as a kids being raised in all this it said, fuck religion, tribe, region, time etc and fuck what they call themselves, those who put love first are my flock. might all just be the desperate need to redeem a character that spoke to me deeply as a kid from the nonsense i saw, and was made to take part in, in his name.

think it's fair to say in today's world jesus would have been labelled a terrorist.

claig

the person who wrote it produces a series of thoughts on different topics, intended to spark debate. Some of his thoughts you are likely to agree with, and some to disagree. Although I disagree with his view of morality, he may be right about the impossibility of peace talks achieving anything as things stand. He makes various points in his preface, link below.

also (I was at fault here:

I'll ask readers not to quote parts of this blog out of context. To do so would be misleading. And also keep in mind that I don't know what I'm talking about most of the time. This blog is for entertainment purposes only and is designed to make you look at familiar situations in novel ways

HoneyBadger, you are right that those who regard themselves as righteous or right are often wrong. Blair has what he calls a Faith Foundation, you couldn't make it up!

Thanks, PigletJohn, ideas to spark debate are good. No one really knows all the answers, most of us are all just seeking the truth and trying to do what is right.

why would Jesus be labelled a terrorist? he never hurt anyone or suggested violence and didn't want to oust the Romans. he was radical granted

Just seen what Turkey is sending to Gaza - never knew there were such things as floating power stations. Hope it brings a little light to the darkness.

Here's a picture of it - what an amazing thing.

last time Turkey send aid to Gaza, Israel considered them to be interfering trouble-makers and attacked the ships, shooting a few people.

Obviously Gaza has no sovereignty and no right to receive ships.