A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

If I read the news I tend to read Reuters site. Am I right in thinking it's more balanced and factual?

Have to admit to being a little confused by talk of hawks and puppets.

Agreeing with you yet again, Red.

And with everything Saga said.

Although I hope I'm not guilty of the same, as I'm also posting more about the larger picture. But only because other people are already expressing what I feel about the victims and families. I don't do prayers, but everyone affected is very much in my thoughts.

The public gets what the public wants.

The graphic stuff is what a lot of people want in situations like this. Its rubbernecking; the demand for as much 'news' as possible drives it.

The likes of the DM will only supply what they believe their audience wants and they can get away with. They can always justify now, that it is widely available on the internet too. The audience thinks its a shocking terrible story and wants evidence to prove just how shocking it is.

I don't see it as being a million miles off 'doorstopping' by journalists. Just more visual. Its still as intrusive and disrespectful as practices that have been in place for decades.

Disasters are a strange creature. The more awful, the more we want to know about it. You have to ask just how much this is entertainment and just how much it is because we really care.

'Have to admit to being a little confused by talk of hawks and puppets.'

Unless you understand hawks and their agenda, then you won't understand the war party and the people who lead the world where it goes. Puppets are merely the tools of the hawks. McCain is probably one of the best know hawks. But of course, he makes no decisions. the real decisions are made behind the scenes. But if you listen carefully to what McCain says, then you can gain an insight into what the real powerbrokers and decision makers are thinking.

"John McCain: The Senate's lonely war hawk"

www.delawareonline.com/story/opinion/contributors/2014/06/19/john-mccain-senates-lonely-war-hawk/10900241/

TheWomanTheyCallJayne I would tend to say that AP and Reuters were a couple of the 'better' sources, simply because they have reporters on the ground and the provide stories to Sky and the BBC. However I'd still be a little cautious as they are still part of the race to get the story, that the BBC has tried to keep out of as much as it can.

I do think one of the issues is that the BBC used to have more reporters on the ground, which again is why they are struggling to be as quick as they previously were too. AP and Reuters have suffered similar problems (which is down to pure cost of running a massive network). There is much more reliance on eye witness accounts and freelancers these days for all reputable news agencies which does effect the quality of the information you get out the end.

I often think that the generation of my parents (born just after WW2) are so lucky to have lived in peace. I am afraid this peace looks less and less sustainable. I am afraid the world leads itself to self-destruction and the cruel nature of human beings has not changed, despite of fast progress in everything.

I am speechless at the crash, but more speechless of all the lies fed by Russian press. We can try to be tolerant and wait for official investigation, but sometimes things are pretty clear as it is.

Hawks and Doves is a very US-political way of describing politicians. If they are "Hawks" they are generally aggressive in pursuing their agenda where as "Doves" are more laid back. It doesn't simply apply to defence matters, you can be a Hawk or a Dove on other matters such as budgets, etc.

Good point, Franke. I don't watch West Wing.

Meadow, I agree that we've been lucky to live in peace - it was very uneasy peace, though! We lived under a very real threat of nuclear war. If you think the jostling between heads of state & militias is bad now, you should have seen the Cold War! Spies, counter-spies, lies and triple agents ... ordinary-looking men in raincoats being strangely murdered for their secretive roles in undercover arms deals, British people seeing airborne weapons in the sky, which we were told we can't have seen, and huge military bases that didn't appear on any map ... it didn't exactly promote trust in The Powers That Be. Particularly when they told us to get under the kitchen table if a nuclear bomb went off

World politics is very different to Hawks and Doves of the US.

This is essentially a European issue, so whilst there will be much hot air to appease an American audience, it will be lead by the EU more than perhaps we'd think. But the US will still have to be 'seen' as doing something for various reasons.

Politically America is in a position where it financially and militarily can not support another conflict, unless its hand is forced so hard that the public mood will allow for conscription. We really aren't anywhere near that yet. Cut backs mean they simply do not have the man power to take this on.

However, what is happening domestically is important. One of Obama's 'weaknesses' is seen by others as his foreign policy and cutting of the defence budget. We are now in the period where US politicians are trying to raise their profile and win popular support for the next presidential candidacy. There is going to be a lot of this hot air about, as its about domestic power, not whats going on elsewhere.

Likewise Europe. I think sanctions will happen, and I think there will be a movement of troops to Eastern Europe, but nothing in Ukraine.

Equally I don't think Russia will want this to go any further, but Putin can not afford to loose face either. My suspicion is that its a pro-Russian cock up that Putin is well aware of but can not admit to for various reasons. He has to show strength too, but knows that low key support for Ukraine is largely buggered now the eyes of the world are all looking there.

I do find it troubling and worrying, and do worry about how far each side will feel they need to push the matter... Brinkmanship is always scary and worrying as it can go too far.

As for nuclear. No. Unlikely. Regardless. The West won't fire first. And Russia wouldn't be any better off for it. Plus, you really don't want to be creating that much world unrest, when your neighbour is China and has the largest standing army in the world.

It does sound like a cock up on a massive scale. his screen grabs of someone claiming to have brought down a cargo plane then the original post being removed sharpish.
No ones going to want to take responsibility for murdering nearly 300 people even if it was an "accident".

RedToothBrush, in the Cold War we lived in a multipolar world which provided some balance and prevented another World War. Now we are in a unipolar world with American pre-eminence. But the economic power is shifting as China grows and the BRICS set up ther bank only yesterday, to be headquartered in Shanghai

"Nobel Economist Joseph Stiglitz Hails New BRICS Bank Challenging U.S.-Dominated World Bank & IMF"

www.democracynow.org/2014/7/17/nobel_economist_joseph_stiglitz_hails_new

America is trillions in debt and people are beginning to talk of the beginning of the end of the dollar as the world reserve currency.

That is why times are so dangerous now. We are seeing a shift in world power and a challenge to the global elite. That is why we are seeing challenges to Russia and turmoil in the Middle East as the battle for control intensifies. It will eventually draw in China.

That is why it is so important to read what hawks like McCain say or to read some of the hawkish columns in the financial elite's magazine - the Economist.

claig, really not interested in conspiracy shit.

It's not conspiracy shit. It's foreign policy.

I tend to agree with Kagan, who is the husband of Victoria Nuland, of the tapped "F* the EU" phone call over the Ukraine crisis, when he says that America will remain number one. But it won't happen by magic. I think there will be conflict.

"Just before delivering the State of the Union address, President Obama told a collection of news anchors that his thinking had been influenced by Kagan's recent cover essay in The New Republic, "Not Fade Away: The Myth of American Decline." It is not often that a president running for reelection praises his chief rival's counselor.

Kagan's article, which draws on his new book, The World America Made, contests the emerging consensus in foreign-policy circles that American primacy is eroding thanks to the shift in global power from the West to the "rising rest." China and other nations are steadily ascending, this view holds, while the United States and its allies are stuck in an economic rut. The long era of Western hegemony seems to be coming to an end.

Kagan begs to differ. He contends that U.S. primacy is undiminished and that Americans, as long as they set their minds to it, are poised to sit atop the global pecking order for the indefinite future."

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/03/the-decline-of-the-west-why-america-must-prepare-for-the-end-of-dominance/254779/

Redbush, why do you say it's conspiracy shit? I have been following this thread and found claig's last post quite interesting.

Could you not start your own thread to discuss this?

Sir Christopher Meyer on Sky just now says
"this is the mother of all crises for the Kremlin"

and Sky suggesting that the Russians will not be taking the black boxes to Moscow.

Oh good, back on the thread's topic now.

Oh god I've just seen on BBC website that one Australian couple have lost family members in both Malaysian Airways disasters. They lost their son and daughter in law on MH370 and have now lost their son in law's daughter and her husband on MH17

Theres also a husband and wife steward couple. The wife was supposed to be on MH370 but switched shifts. But sadly the husband did the same for MH17 but instead was on the plane.

Every disaster seems to have weird near misses or escapes as well as coincidences.

In some ways i think that only serves to make everyone else feel even more uneasy and scared by events.

It is absolutely heartbreaking and horrifying.

The personal stories that are being released, I'm finding it hard to read them through the tears.

Three Australian children killed along with their grandfather, who was flying back with them to Oz, so they were back in time for school to start up again. The childrens' parents were staying in Holland for a few more days, before flying back. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with losing your children?

Even if the black boxes get handed to Russia it does not mean that a cover up will happen, people are fucking deluded if they think Russia will just say they contain X and everyone will have to put with it. There will be a proper investigation and many countries will be involved.

How do you know that for fact though. Dig deep about Smolensk 2010 - the air disaster that killed the Polish president (a very vocal pro-western, anti Russian), his wife and a lot of other political figures. Russia denied involvement and took the black box and led the investigation then too and it led to mistakes, errors in the final report and discrepancies. While nothing could be found about the alleged means - bomb, shot down etc... many people believe there was a definite destruction of evidence.

and Sky suggesting that the Russians will not be taking the black boxes to Moscow
I heard it reported on Polish news this morning that Putin has actually refused them.

I've not seen any of the images, only what's been on sky news but going by what a lot of you describe here I feel disgusted at what's been shown. I do agree with what a pp said about there being a demand for it but Jesus! do the photo takers not think to themselves that it's maybe too much sometimes and disrespectful.

From the debris field and reports of the bodies it was definitely some form of mid-air explosion. I know this from my training back at an airline.

It's absolutely fucking abhorrent. My friend works at school and his colleague and family were onboard. I have shed a few tears about it.

Oh madcat that's awful. My deepest sympathies to your friend and his colleagues' family.

Tess that's awful :( Poor parents. They must be absolutely overwhelmed with the what-ifs.