I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

:o unreal

I just tried to find the Today programme episode from 1st July with an interview from the Israeli ambassador to the USA but unfortunately it's no longer available on iPlayer. In it he was saying that as Israel is a democracy it does have moral superiority over the PA.

I'm not privy to the ins and outs but I'd guess the Israel-Palestinian conflict receives so much international attention because it destabilizes the whole region, feeds extremism and is used again and again to justify, however wrongly, the view that America and Europe hate Muslims. It's a long-term security issue for everyone in a way that shorter-running conflicts aren't. Lobbies on both sides are both very vocal and very well-placed. Every head of government in the region has an opinion and as we've seen, opinions run very deep and very polarized.

The ambassador is Ron Dermer. A quick glance through Wikipedia tells me that he is "considered Netanyahu's closest adviser and strategic consultant". The Washington Post reckons that he "is intimately involved in the diplomatic process with the Palestinians" and "writes many of Netanyahu's speeches". So, if Wiki is to be believed, not an isolated maverick but an opinion leader at the heart of Israeli policy deliberations.

I'm afraid my history base is too shaky to give a considered opinion on pre-Israel Arab politics. Do you have any reading recommendations so I can inform myself?

andharry

I enjoyed Tom Segev's "One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate"

I think Israel is a bit of a scapegoat for wider problems in the Arab and Muslim world. I mean, what exactly is Iran's issue wiht Israel other than it exists? There is no border dispute with Iran. The Iranian govt doesn't even particularly like Sunni muslims and are supporting the slaughter of them (including many Palestinians) in Syria through Assad and his Hezbollah friends so let's not pretend it's concern for Palestinian well-being (since they're responsible for far more Palestinian deaths!) And Bangladesh, Pakistan and Malaysia? Pakistan has HUGE problems of its own but you'll see the burning of the Israeli flag at demonstrations. Pretty convenient for the Pakistani leadership, I'd say, to deflect public anger from their own failings.

However, I also think that there are certain justifiable expectations from Israel which is a Western, modern, liberal democracy (yes, a flawed one, it's not Sweden, but it is a democracy with a free and open press and free and open elections and a strong civil society). I guess it's the same kind of shock regarding the behaviour of US and UK soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Occupation of another people and democracy at home (even further complicated in Israel/Palestinians by the settlements of course) simply are not good bed-partners, you need to choose which one you want. I'm glad Israel isn't Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan or Iran and is being held to higher moral standards.

I do agree with quivering that there is an obsession with Israel which goes beyond just concern for the Palestinians. A kind of Arab/Muslim diversion from having to be introspective about their own society and values which links up with some quite virulent anti-semitic streams. Some of the criticism and attention Israel receives is certainly justified, but the hyperbole and singling out of Israel among all the world's problems, especially in much of the Muslim world which really should deal with its own quite deplorable human rights record, is for other, less salubrious, reasons, in my opinion.

I think you are right and whether it's a form of (even unconscious) anti semitism I don't know. I think Israel has so much to be proud of in how it has developed in such a short period of time and it has much to not be so proud of in it's handling and relations with the. Palestinians.

I do find a lot of people hypocritical though as it's easy to sit safely in the west and point the finger - wonder how many of those folk would change their mind a bit if they were sitting in Israel with their children instead of safe old UK. Knew those children would have to do NS and possibly be in the firing line or have to deal with the psychological damage of dealing with already suffering civilians and children and all that might bring.

It's really interesting to hear the thoughts from folk from both sides over there as obviously you have much more emotional link and knowledgable. Which folk would say if they have a personal interest when they are posting.

Well the Guardian reports that Israel are preparing for a ground invasion now. I certainly hope this does not come to pass. How anyone can claim Israel is not acting as the aggressor now I don't know!

A ground invasion would be to stop the missiles. Daily life in southern Israel has become ground to a halt adn people are spending all day in bomb shelters. Hamas needs to stop the double war crime of targetting a civillian population and using civlian installations to do so.

I agree that a ground invasion would be disastrous and I hope that Egypt intervenes to broker a ceasefire but to call Israel the aggressor here when Hamas are continually firing rockets on a civillian population from within a civillian population is pretty hypocritical.

Sorry quivering I'm not sure what that acronym means? I'm gathering it's offensive in some way? You're welcome to disagree but no, I won't stop saying that in today's news, the Israeli government and military are acting as aggressors. Bombings and the preparation of a ground force are hostile and disproportionate actions. It disgusts me and my sympathies are entirely with the Palestinians in this instance.

I've been on the thread from the start quivering and read it avidly throughout! I'm not misinformed and nor am I closed minded or bigoted. I simply don't believe that Israel's govt and military have taken the right steps today. Nor do I think that they have been right on many occasions in the past. On balance, I sympathise more with the Palestinians in general than I do with the Israeli govt and military. Today especially. Israel's actions today are not justifiable and are not in the interests of a solution, of peace or of human rights. And there's no need to swear!

Springheeled -

To give a comparison, if the IRA had recently started regularly firing rockets aimed at the British mainland, on a daily basis, aiming to kill as many British civilians as possible; if they were shown celebrating every time Israeli children died; if Irish children at school were taught that the British were some sort of monsters; if 3 British teenagers had just been kidnapped and murdered - do you honestly think that the British government and British press would be sitting there quietly going yes, you're quite right, we mustn't be the aggressors here...

Like hell they would.

People who pronounce on Israel as aggressors whilst living in an island that has not been invaded for a thousand years sort of miss the point. Israel is in very real danger of being attacked and needs to fight for its survival. If it hadn't done that on numerous occasions in the past, Israel would not now exist. If the downside is being labelled as 'aggressors', the upside is...being alive. Which is quite a bit upside, I think you would have to agree.

If I was in Israel's place I would ask for peace talks, and show a commitment to peace and a solution by stopping the settlements and taking down that bloody wall. I would start to work towards a two state solution. I wouldn't start sabre rattling.

If you feel that bombing is an appropriate solution to this problem then there is absolutely no arguing with you. It is wrong and hugely inflammatory. An 8 year old child was apparently killed today- the same age as my ds. If you believe that is justified, well, where is the hope there for any of us? It's inhumane.

As both sides have been calling for a de-escalation I hope that the mobilization of forces ends up being unnecessary and stood down. What I'd like to see is an evacuation of civilians from Gaza, women and children first, to greatly reduce the inevitable civilian casualties of a ground attack.

Thanks for the reading recommendations. I'll certainly look at the links and get a copy of the book.

Any real commitment to peace on Israel's part has to begin with dismantling settlements in the west bank and lifting the blockade on Gaza. In return all rocket attacks from Gaza must stop. There needs to be a concerted effort to fin d the killers of those three boys.
Jesus I've been on threads like this for ten years now (sad). Same old,same old.