I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

baking
I asked a question regarding who were these nine Palestinians who were apparently killed in Israel's disproportionate response which you didn't answer. You linked the rockets being fired with Israel's response to the murder of the teens as though Hamas is now firing in response.

I think that you're wrong.

I didn't say you're not sympathetic to Israelis who are being exposed to constant rocket and missile fire, I'm sure you are.

I agree. But Hamas are the problem. And the Palestinians keep electing Hamas. How can Israel deal with a organization that vows to wipe their country off the face of the earth?

Shak you dismiss any organisation, news report, charity that does not align with your one sided view.

I'd rather hear from people like quivering than from those with one sided views like you and tucson. Thankfully none of my family and friends in RL are as one sided or aggressive as you.

I am hiding this thread now as there is no reasoning with the likes of you two. Feel free to attack me when I've gone.

What on earth are you talking about baking? I ASKED you about who these nine Palestinians were (as the BBC and others say there were Hamas militants, some of whom were killed when they exploded their own tunnel by mistake). What's the problem in answering the question? I really don't get it.

I didn't dismiss anything but provided links to and quoted from both BBC and Reuters regarding Hamas and the reasons for the rocket fire.

You didn't provide any links and I actually had a quick look myself about these 110 arrests and the only 'news agency' reporting it was a Palestinian website. Not BBC, CNN, Al Jazeera or any of the Israeli news outlets.

shak justifying israel's actions against palestinians is abhorrent as they violate human rights. You mention the greatness of Israel's calorie counting for Gazans. Israel very much intends to wipe out a nation. Hamas say it openly, Israel does it under a guise. It is sickening. The calorie counting wasnt for their health benefit, it was to restrict and deny. A court order was needed to get the Israeli government to even release the document - the humanitarians that they are! Collective punishment affecting every Palestinian. That is so callous and vile.

www.nytimes.com/2012/10/18/world/middleeast/israel-counted-calories-needed-for-gazans-in-blockade.html?_r=0

www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

You cannot disregard every news report that is not pro Jewish shak.

Ayelet shaked, part of the ruling coalition, last week called for the genocide of palestinians including newborn babies which she described as 'little snakes'. Israel want to eradicate palestine and then are furious when palestine fight back. I can't post links from my phone but I see you are more than proficient at using Google.

We need more discussions about pursuing options which may lead to peace for future generations rather than vitriol aimed at either side. The innocent israeli and palestinian populations deserve peace. Muslims and Jews lived harmoniously for centuries and we have to believe it can happen in this region.

Muslims and Jews lived harmoniously for centuries and we have to believe it can happen in this region.

That was probably because they didn't 'own' land in those days. Land was used by those who were on it, but it wasn't carved up and owned. That was the case in the UK as well until 1500s.

Babbas

Please name one news agency whose news I have disregarded.

Or, conversely, a 'pro-Jewish' news agency who I have quoted. Unless you're including the BBC and Reuters

I hadn't seen it reported on any news agency that Ayelet Shaked said that. She may have done. If she did then she should be prosecuted under the anti-incitement laws and expelled from the Knesset.

It certainly doesn't mean that Israel (whatever that means - the current government? all governments? all people?) wish to wipe out the Palestinians.

Members of the Knesset say stupid things. Haneen Zoabi, an Arab MK, said that the murderers of the three teens weren't terrorists but fighting occupation. That wasn't very nice either.

Elusive

Actually, you'll find I was referring precisely to the 'calorie counting scandal' when I said that Israel had calculated things very carefully. It was in response to Donnie saying that food wasn't being allowed in. Did I say it was a great thing? No I didn't. Please don't twist my words - you just cheapen yourself doing so. What I DID say was (paraphrasing Ahmad Tibi) that some things israel does (ie the occupation and blockade) are ugly enough without needing to make them uglier with half truths, lies and propaganda.

And I do wonder how this idea of Israel having a covert plan to wipe out Palestinians works in your mind. I know you won't answer because you can't (you'll probably just attack me or be sarcastic....watch this space.....) but I'm really interested. Is this an idea that the current government came up with? Is it one which has motivated Israel,and every government, since 1948? How come no-one has uncovered, in all the cabinet meetings, defense briefings etc, this covert plan? Have left wing governments, which have included parties like Meretz, been part of this covert plan to destroy all Palestinians? Does it change when governments change (you know, what with Israel being a democracy and all that)?

I appreciate it's abhorrent to you that someone might try to consider the Israeli side. I understand that, in your mind, Israelis are demons and Palestinians are as pure as the driven snow. Of course Israel tried to cover up the documents regarding the calorie restrictions. Fortunately, there is a law regarding freedom of information in Israel which is why Israel was forced to release the document under court order....ooooh, it's a bit like the way the UK tried to cover up all the Iraq documents. How shocking that governments don't like handign over incriminating documents until they have to!

A really eye opening account by ferrari shepherd of his visit to the region:

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4761896

I pray that there are no further casualties on either side tonight.

And for those of you GENUINELY interested in hearing Israeli opinions and dissent, Israelis criticizing Israel and Israeli policy, this is a translation of a facebook post by Yuval Diskin head of the Israeli Internal Security Services (the Shabak) from 2005-2011 (so hardly a naive and lovey-dovey person!).

blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/201468/ex-shin-bet-chief-israeli-illusions-fueled-blowup/

I agree with a lot of what he says although he probably has a political agenda as it's well know that he hates Bibi and Bibi hates him.

I knew the personal attacks would come.

Twas always thus on these kind of threads.

i have found reading this thread really interesting, measured (mostly) and enlightening. I hope for peace for both sides, and reading your posts shak andHarry have given me hope.

Yruapita - nonsense. Shak's posts have been measured and very interesting and informative. Your posts dream blatant hatred of anything Israeli and you are to blind with anger to be subjective.

Quivering and Shak's posts have made me think there still might be some hope for peace as they are not full of hate for the Palestininas.

This thread has been a real eye opener because I usually zone out on discussions like this because the antagonism clouds everything. People entrenched, with very restricted but knowledgeable views can debate on for hours but ultimately there is no intention to understand the other side.

People here have been bold and honest and open and have not reverted to a lazy form of hostility, they are genuinely wanting to discuss ways forward without blame. They even also listened to my random uninformed views.

Let's try and focus on the positive.

I've appreciated everyone's input on this thread, even especially those posters who don't agree with me. Let's face it, we're not going to solve the conflict right here but it is good to think about the issues and see where common ground can be found. A thousand pinpricks of light and all that...

On a tangent, who knows or has any opinion on what Tony Blair is up to? I have to say, I haven't heard a single thing about his activities in Israel and I haven't been looking too hard as he gives me The Rage.

unreal I was thinking about your posts this morning. A sizable minority of Israelis do make the decision to emigrate, as we've seen on this thread. Individually there are many good reasons for doing so but at a more collectivist level I wish more moderate Israelis would stick it out and fight for a more moderate approach.

Someone else said about likening the situation to Northern Ireland. I was a small child when the Good Friday agreement was signed so I'm afraid I have a very hazy and incomplete understanding of the Northern Ireland situation, which is a bit odd really as I'm a Brit. Looking at today's violence though it looks more like gang warfare with each side picking on its own almost as much as each other.

I have no rage about Tony Blair and generally support his role as wheeler dealer reaching the parts that political process can't reach.

I think he is acting out of penance for his sins though which is probably not the best motivation. His heart is in the right place, he wants peace and he's far from being a fool.

He has accepted that our democratic process can't always be imposed on others and works with that in mind.

What does he actually do?

Until now He was essentially a lobbyist for peace. His accountability is unto himself and probably his new found god.

But yes now he is the legitimate peace envoy for the UN so can't do so much wheeling and dealing.

Quivering was that a question to me? I consider Israeli and Palestinian fear to be a barrier to peace. People do terrible things when they are afraid, including reducing individuals to a collective sum of their fear-inducing traits, thus dehumanizing them.

I didn't mean to refer to Blair as He with a capital H. Stupid fingers, not Blair worship.