I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

Yikes, your sister needs a better bomb shelter. That's something the Israeli government could and should do: ensure that everyone in at risk areas has safe access to a bomb shelter where they can bed down overnight. My relatives have their bomb shelter as their guest bedroom. It's really nice!

Where to is a good question. Tents in the desert I suppose :(

I don't see any future in a two state solution any more. Only a one state solution. Palestinians and Israelis will either live together,or die. IMO.

Donnie
Israel did lift the blockade on Gaza. In 2010. It was a stupid thing to do and only played into Hamas' hands.

Now only materials which might be used to make weapons are not allowed in (by the Egyptians and the Israelis).

Hamas was firing missiles at Israel before any blockade, during the blockade and after the blockade. They don't need any more excuses than the fact that every Israeli citizen is fair game for them.

Israel's first responsibility is to protects its own citizens. Unfortunately, civilian Palestinian casualties may result as Hamas commit the war crime of purposely situating their military installations WITHIN civillian areas. Hamas, as an elected body, have the first responsibility to protect their own citizens. They're not doing that, are they? What exactly are they going to gain from this? The ones who are going to lose out the most are the Palestinians.

Why is it so difficult for them to just stop firing rockets?

You see shak, in my view the building of illegal settlements is as aggressive and as confrontational as the firing of rockets from Gaza. I really don't see a material difference. Is there one ?

Quivering: who makes the first move? Both sides have so much to lose,esp the Palestinians. Whoever makes the first move is to be admired. But ultimately my opinion - as you know - is that Israel cannot be taken seriously unless they show long-term commitment to dismantling illegal settlements.

I'm sorry Quivering but I absolutely disagree with you. I maintain that the continued building of illegal settlements is as aggressive and as confrontational as firing rockets. They absolutely do "inflict injury and damage" and to claim otherwise is dangerously naive. You think the routine stealing of their land,farms and therefore livelihood,jobs etc is damage free? Seriously?

But there aren't any settlements in Gaza, donnie. Every last one was evacuated. So why fire rockets from Gaza at the civilian population in Israel putting your OWN population at risk because you don't give a shit about them and fire from within civilian areas.

And, anyway, Hamas isn't interested in the settlements. Hamas is interested in NO peace and NO Israel. Hamas started with the suicide bombings in 1992 precisely in order to derail the peace process - which would have led to the evacuation of the settlements.

And if they really are firing rockets because of settlements in the WB (which they're not) then it's a bit counter-productive. Do you know how many conversations I've had regarding the settlements where someone has said to me 'Well, we evacuated the settlements in Gaza and got rockets in return, is this what will happen if we evacuate the settlements in the West Bank?'.

What Israelis need to think is that if they evacuate and dismantle the settlements (which, even though you and I don't like them, would be very painful for many Israelis), then they'll get peace in return. Hamas is telling them that quite the opposite is true.

Quivering: you know I'm right. What is the point of trying to find a difference between a ruined nursery and a family who face destitution because their home and livelihood has been taken away? They are all monumentally fucked.
you know I'm right.

Why does anyone with any sympathy for Palestinians get absolutely flamed on this thread? People have been called shit stirrers, not educated, not making sense etc. It is exactly this kind of one sided aggression which is escalating the problems in that region.

I'm hiding this thread as I simply cannot read another post justifying the actions of Israel which are disproportionate, indiscriminate, and illegal. To protect their own citizens they will just bomb and send ground forces to kill other citizens. Again I hope and pray that there are no further casualties on either side.

Does anyone remember the fire in a Mexican nursery a few years ago, with people ramming lorries into the building to try to get the babies out? Humans are programmed to protect babies and very small children. Bombing a nursery shows that the bombers see those babies as less than human and is very, very disturbing.

No, topbanana, the problems in Israel/Palestine are pretty much home-grown. They don't start with international shit stirrers, unfortunately.

I don't agree with Donnie on a lot of points but I don't think she's the cause of the conflict or that she's an international shit stirrer (although that would be quite the profession I'd imagine)

Topbanana I have reported your personally abusive post. Other than that I will not engage with extremists or abusive posters. Well done on lowering the tone though.

I have a huge amount of sympathy for the Palestinian civilians who are suffering terribly and seem to have little to no power to better their own situation. It must be terrifying, numbing and unbelievably frustrating. I don't think anyone with an ounce of compassion can have failed to be moved by the photo of the father trying to shield his young son from Israeli bullets out in the open when they got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There are dreadful wrongs on both sides. IMO there can be no pre-conditions for ceasing abuse of human rights. On either side. Better solutions must be found.

i have plenty of sympathy for the Palestinians. It's as obvious as the day is long that they're going to be the worse off for this.

It is actually legal for Israel to retaliate to these kind of attacks even if there are Palestinian civillian casualties. The question of proportionality is not one of numbers but the care taken to avoid unnecessary civillian injury and death (that's international law, not my opinion). it doesn't mean it's not tragic, just that it is actually legal.

What IS a war crime is Hamas purposely firing from within civillian areas.

That is ILLEGAL (I'm not even talking about Hamas purposely firing on Israeli civillians - also illegal and a war crime - but THEIR OWN PEOPLE).

It's because I have sympathy for the Palestinians that I can say why the fuck doesn't Hamas just stop firing rockets? It's really not that difficult. Just stop doing it. Then there won't be an Israeli response or a ground invasion.