I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

I'm glad we've agreed then donnie that no one is starving in Gaza and food and medicines are allowed in. BTW, Oxfam is not an neutral party, it does great work but it's very politicised as well.

I did not call anyone a liar. However, I have personal and direct experience of the Israeli civil service. At no point in the application process does anyone concern themselves with your political opinions or whether you have ever taken part in a demonstration. I'm sure Andharry is reporting things as has been told to her, if they are true then her relative can and should raise a grievance with the Israeli civil service commission. Personally, I've never heard of such a thing and that's after many years in the Israeli civil service. Quivering, who lives in Israel, also found the described scenario unrealistic. There are many things to criticize about the Israeli democracy, it's far from perfect, but the Israeli civil service is professional and is not political other than at the most senior levels.

Cheeky was absolutely wrong when it comes to the objective of the wall which apparently is to 'strengthen the apartheid' which actually doesn't even make any sense. No, the wall was built in direct response to terrorist attacks. Fact. And it did its job. Fact. If there wouldn't have been almost constant terror attacks from the 2nd initfada in the early 2000s, there would be no wall today. Fact. And following the building of the wall, terror attacks dropped significantly. Fact.

But, of course, things are more complicated than that. You can be opposed to the wall and still recognise why it was built. No need to make things more ugly than they already are.

If you read what I wrote, I said I was conflicted about the wall. It shouldn't have been built on Palestinian land, it should have gone along the 1949 armistice green line (in my opinion) - although Jerusalem would still have been a big problem (and I can assure you that the residents of Shuafat and Beit Hanina want to be on the Israeli side) and it should have been built on Israeli land. That I agree with and hence the contradiction: on the one hand, relief that the objective of reducing terror attacks on me, my family and friends worked (apparently being relieved at not being blown up is inhumane and shocking, but there you go!) but on the other hand, issues with both the route and the way in which the wall was built.

The reason the wall goes into the WB is in order to include as many large settlement blocks as possible, like Gush Etzion, and this is what causes the problems for the Palestinians who get trapped almost on the wrong side of the wall. And, yes, I can believe that Israel used the opportunity to establish a fait accompli, with the route of the wall the future border with Israel - which is wrong, of course, since that needs to be established in negotiations with the Palestinians.

And if you know that Israel is only looking for an excuse, how about not sending terrorists to blow up innocent civilians and thereby deny Israel such an excuse?

I also think all the initiatives to bring together Israelis and Palestinians are absolutely essential. Palestinians and Israelis are actually not all that different. I think one of the tragedies of the recent years is that Palestinians and Israelis no longer mix. Palestinians only see settlers and soldiers and Israelis in Israel hardly see Palestinians at all (although there are Israeli Arabs of course who are the same ethnically but taken a different course historically). Previously, Palestinians would come to work and study in Israel and natural inter-personal relationships would develop. It's all to easy to demonise and dehumanise the other side when you don't see them or meet them on a human level, whatever the politics. Which is why the killers of the Israeli teens sang with joy once they'd killed them and the killers of the Arab boy were able to inflict on him such a horrific death. You don't do that if you see the other side as fully human as you are.

The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new.

Socrates would agree with me on the education thing...

Yes, far too much time is spent portraying people as Other. The more personal contact is made, the less acceptable atrocities on either side will be.

Quivering that's really sad.

OK, I get that Israel isn't a wildlife sanctuary for Jews, but initially it was established as a sanctuary - in a world where they found only hostility and exclusion.

I guess I'm saying that the world has changed so much now that they don't need a nation state, they can be given equal citizenship in safety and security in many countries. In the UK, Australia and the US they will never be subject to systemic abuse of any kind, they are fully protected by many human rights laws and discrimination laws. I completely understand the fear and mistrust but what's going on in Israel is just not going to stop. It hasn't got better, it's getting worse all the time, despite all the understanding and knowledge of how damaging this is, nothing will change.

Her brother slapped her in ICU because she wasn't wearing hijab. My parents wouldn't speak to me whilst my neckline wasn't high enough.

One of the reasons it won't change is that in both these societies women are oppressed to some degree. Any society with oppressed women is destined to fail and be engaged in war. My theory, but fairly well founded. The odds are seriously stacked against peace. These women will have a better chance to find freedom in the UK than they will have staying in Israel.

Any society with oppressed women is destined to fail and be engaged in war.

I don't think it's as simplistic as that, but I wrote my dissertation why why the second Palestinian Intifada failed (compared to the American Civil Rights Movement) and one of the reasons turned out to be the role of women.

They were absolutely instrumental in the beginning but then their role in the Intifada started to get curtailed by the men and so they had to put their efforts in to fighting for their own freedom rather than that of all Palestinians.

I agree with AndHarry that women will be key to bringing peace, I just hope they have space in society to do so.

I'm glad you wrote about that Usain, it does apply to most dysfunctional societies, even in Ireland the women are oppressed through the Catholic Church.

I'm not sure how oppressed Israeli women are, I assume there are varying degrees of liberty over there as there are over here.

usain
I'd have said that the American Civil Rights movement was more akin to the First Intifada. A genuine grass-roots uprising against injustice.

The second intifada was totally different. I never heard of it being liberating for women. In fact, from what I read, Palestinian society, especially in Gaza, has gone backwards with respect to women in a lot of ways.

I just emailed with my friend who lives in a kibbutz near Sderot. She's in the bomb shelter with her kids :( They can't move.

I heard that there are sirens in Jerusalem and Mevasseret now as well. That can't possibly be because of missiles from Gaza?!

I have friends with young children near the Gaza border in the Negev. Hope they are ok.

What range do these rockets have?

Unreal - what makes you think Israeli women are oppressed? There are religious and non religious Israeli women - you can't lump them all in together.

Shakshuka, can we just suspend our disbelief for a moment?

Let's say the Palestinian people, who have been exiled from their land in much the same way as the Jewish people portray themselves, are granted land by the UN.

That land happens to be in Palestine and involves the forced relocation of lots of Israelis.

Do you think, for one moment, the Israelis would have just rolled over and accepted that? Of course they bloody wouldn't. And, yes, 70 odd years later, there would still be Israelis launching aggressive attacks on those they considered to have stolen their land.

Would you be there saying "they should just get over it"? I really don't think so.

There is no excuse for the way the Israelis behave towards the Palestinians. No excuse for their continued land-grabs. No excuse for the way they have forced an entire people into exile, the way they say they themselves were.

As a westerner who has lived some years in the Middle East, I cannot understand anyone who tries to argue in favour of Israeli action here.

JEws were kicked off of their land in Europe by the Nazis. And yet they seem to have (largely) got over it, moved on in life, and prospered wherever they have gone.

Got over it? Really? That's why they continue to force Palestinians off their land and out of their homes?

Get real.

News agencies are reporting 110 palestinians arrested overnight, half of them children. People cowering and in bomb shelters on the border. It's very distressing. Since the 3 teens killed Israel has killed 9 palestinians. Israel has again acted disproportionately and those paying the price are families at the border who are at the mercy of long range rockets.

Oh please. Where was the outrage when the 3 Israeli students were killed by Palestinians, which was the thing that set this latest round of fighting off? As usual, Israel are the bad guys. Do some research, maybe go out there and see for yourself, and stop believing the simplistic bullshit put out by the Guardian et al, with their whole prejudice of low expectations bullshit. Palestine could be just as prosperous as Israel. The people responsible for the fact that it is not are not Israeli. They are Hamas.

Actually, you'll find that reputable news agencies are reporting that Hamas is angry that some of its fighters blew themselves up in a tunnel when they went to inspect damage and some others of their fighters were killed by Israel and that's why they are firing missiles (from within civillian installations, as always). They really don't give a shit about the consequences to their own populace who they purportedly represent.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28192747

www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/07/us-palestinians-israel-idUSKBN0FC0JP20140707

You can't always twist every situation to make it all Israel's fault. Hamas are clearly spoiling for a fight and kudos to Bibi (which is not something I often say) for cautioning against a rush to a confrontation with Hamas and putting his coalition at risk for doing so (since the more extreme right wing want him to do more).

baking novice
Who are these nine Palestinians killed by Israel? Are you including Hamas militants in this count, perhaps? The air strikes on Gaza are not a response to the kidnapping but a response to the rockets.

There are things about the Israeli response to the kidnapping and murder which are disproportionate. This isn't one of them and is also not the reason for the rockets.

Tucson please don't patronise me. FYI I have lived out in Israel. It's a tragedy for both sides and it's a shame you can't see that.

Shak - the current situation has escalated due to the death of the 3 teens. Please don't use your aggressive tone on me. I have family and friends at the border and fully understand what is/has happened.