I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

Palestinians are dehumanised EVERY DAY in Gaza - not just when Israel bombs them. But please, will someone think of the 'thriving greenhouse vegetables' that Israel left behind. And that the Palestinians destroyed the vegetables - the savages!!!!!

At the end of the day nothing we say will change anything. No one deserves to have the home bombed or loved one's killed. Will anything change? No! Will people keep dying? Yes! Israel, Hamas and the rest of the so called UN have blood on their hands. May Allah bestow peace and paradise on all those who have lost their lives.

Not indiscriminately bombing?? How on earth do you explain the bombing of a home for disabled people this weekend?

Entire families are currently being ripped apart on the off chance that the Israeli bombs may damage Hamas in some way.

Come off it.

Why do you think palestinians hate Israel?

And thanks to social media so does the rest of the world.

I made some points, and all that is taken from the couple of paragraphs that I wrote is "poor greenhouses?!"
To emphasise, the greenhouses were Jewish built and that is why they were destroyed, the Hamas charter is to annihilate all Jews. And guess what, Jews take charters like that very very seriously.

Guess what fukkigucci your arguments don't have a leg to stand on and everyone in the world knows it. Apologists for Israeli govt actions this week? vile. And all the world knows it. Watch the children's bodies being put into a mortuary tonight and ask yourself: WHERE IS YOUR HUMANITY? It's sick and you know it. Everyone knows it. Any decent human being in the world recoils from the actions of the Israeli government this week.

And don't you dare to assume that Jews stand by the actions of the Israeli government. This is not about that. Jewishness and Zionism are NOT one and the same.

Love the attempts of trying to put Israel and Jews as representing the same thing. They are not the same thing. Most jews worldwide are horrified. Israelis are watching the show with popcorn from hilltops.

Yes. Because Hamas are differentiating between Jews and Zionists.
Again, my point. Hamas want to kill all Jews. As they state in their charter. Israel is defending all Jews who are living within her borders.
I'm bowing out for tonight. I'm really interested in intelligent debate, but you really have got to read all my points.

Does it matter anymore?

Surely there comes a point (now is good), when it is recognized that each side has behaved atrociously and each side just wants to live and raise a family in peace and safety.

This dispute has been going in and is too dirty for any side to claim moral superiority. Are Israel and Palastine committed to their people? No. Not at the minute.

So how do we change that? How do we make politicians act in the interests of the people, real people who just want the opportunity to live their lives, grow and nurture their DCs, celebrate their lives and die of natural causes? Like we all do?

How can anyone be surprised that the Palestinians feel hatred for Israel given the civilian deaths and ongoing oppression? That doesn't make them evil people.
Some disgusting comments by Israelis on social media proving that the hatred is anything but one sided.
Calls to turn Gaza into a graveyard.
Regardless of views, how can anyone not feel compassion and horror at the current deaths and suffering?

I do have a question that hopefully some of the more knowledgeable poster might be able to help me with...

Thousands of people in Gaza have been told to evacuate, which is fine for those who hold dual citizenship, what about those who do not? Where can they go? Can they actually leave Gaza?

It is only a matter of time that Israel's actions will be recognised as holocaust and it will be held responsible for war crimes.

Colgate no, they won't be able to leave Gaza.

Thank you Backinthering, I had thought this was the case but wasn't sure.

I have no idea what we can do to change what is going on, at the moment all I can do is attend every demo I can to at least show that there are many many of us in the UK who do not 'staunchly support' Israel's actions.

Colgate they've been told to evacuate from the north of the Gaza strip to the south. There are UN refugee camps there. They won't be able to leave the Gaza strip though.

As Dione says, there is fault on both sides. In my opinion what Israel is doing in this campaign is horrific. What Palestinian militants are doing - trying to blow up a nursery among other civilian targets - is also horrific. Neither side is justified. There are some cruel, wicked people on both sides. There are also misled people, angry people and terrified people on both sides.

just to state again as an israeli has tried to hide behind 'the jewish people' - this is nothing to do with judaism.

any true jew will be horrified by israeli actions. any true jew will know that murder is wrong and the message of their Gd is to keep faith, keep the torah and wait for the 'promised land' to be restored to them by the messiah. many jewish leaders see the very notion of the israeli state in the way it has been taken as blasphemy and directly going against Gd. this is nothing to do with judaism.

bombing the fuck out of civilians on the sabbath day was not a command given.

also very many jews are aware of the xionist complicity in many deaths during the holocaust via blocking any deal to repatriate jews that did not give them palestine. likewise the xionist leaders were writing about how the holocaust was wonderful as it would get them palestine and stating that millions of jewish lives in europe were worth less than one tree in palestine.

please don't give us the business about how israel is protecting it's citizens - israel is built on blood sacrifices of both jewish and palestinian people.

people just aren't so naive anymore - we are all waking up via greater exposure and the quick ability to check facts and read original documents and information contemporary to historic events etc. we can all see what is being done and has always been done and can see and hear the complete contempt for humanity.

israel is no better than some neo nazi white supremacy movement or apartheid in south africa or genocide in rwanda - in many ways it worse by far yet it continues.

it's like a thorn. the world has been trying to move on. decolonisation, end of apartheid, human rights movements, etc. it's not lefties hating anything to do with israel or america it's progressives wanting to see the world become a more just, more safe, more peaceful place and seeing that constantly undermined and spat in the face of by key parties.

Another good phone in on LBC this morning. Apparently a lot of high profile British Jewish people are coming out publicly against Israeli actions, Mira Bar-Hillel among them - good for her.

So Tucsongirl, did you pull the old anti-semitism card again? I find that usually happens when your other arguments fail. I felt your comment "mindless fuckwittedness leftism" especially persuasive.

And to anyone who still clings on to the ridiculous notion that Bibi wants peace - don't forget he campaigned vehemently against the peace initiatives of Yitzhak Rabin and called him a traitor. That's the kind of leader Israel has. Poor bastards

The Mira BH article in the Independent a couple of days ago goes into quite a lot of detail about Ayelet Shaked and her extreme racism.

I am guessing that if a British MP said the sorts of things she has said they would be kicked out of the Commons. Among other things she called all Palestinians 'snakes' and demanded that they all burn in hell. Wow, what nice company for Bibi. I guess the notion of Israeli 'democracy' means all racists allowed. Seriously, I pity the Israelis with people like that in their Knesset.

Saadia where are you?

Years ago the world spoke of negotiations, ceasefires and peace deals. Not any more. Very few Jews outside of Israel support the atrocities of this regime.

Now we just want palestinians to have the right to return. 66 plus years in exile, thousands of lives lost and homes destroyed and a nation completely degraded.

What we can do is put our heads together to find workable solutions for preparing for peace so that we can use whatever small influence we have with people on the ground.

As a child I was asked if I knew what the word compromise meant - I said it was when no-one got to do what they really wanted to do. Which will be the case in the Middle East. No-one is going to get everything they want, or probably anything close to what they might want, but not having death as a way of life would be a start. We can't go back in time and change the course of history. It is always important to understand it, as it underlies current events, but as well as discussing the past I think we need to move forward. (I thought Simon Schama's History of the Jews programme explained the history very well). These are my humble opinions: no side is entirely in the right or in the wrong. I think there should be an immediate ceasefire: no more rockets from Hamas, and an end to Operation Protective Edge from the IDF.

I would like to see Hamas renounce terrorism and recognise Israel's right to exist, within the pre-1967 borders. I don’t think all the posters on this thread are convinced about that. Yruapita do you seriously think several million Jewish Israelis should just up sticks and emigrate? Many of them have been there for generations (for example my late grandmother was born in Palestine in 1912 and her grandparents had fled persecution in Russia sometime in the 19th century. Perhaps they should have tried to go America instead but not much we can do about that now!) People can argue until they’re blue in the face about the injustices of the creation of Israel (even an Israeli historian, Ilan Pappé, has written a book called The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine) but I don’t think it’s always practical or helpful when we’re trying to come up with solutions to end the violence. Violence just begets more violence. I agree we should aim to understand the anger that causes Hamas uses rockets, but I can’t condone it. I can’t condone attacking civilians either and Israel’s heavy-handed approach. I assume they don’t deliberately go out of their way to bomb civilians - at least I hope they don’t - but despite whatever limited efforts there are to avoid civilian casualities the death toll is still shockingly high.

I don’t dispute that there will be some people on both sides expressing hideous views. But at least BBC News had a picture on its website about a peace demonstration in Tel Aviv with signs in Hebrew. Haaretz is a more left-leaning Israeli newspaper which has articles about life in Gaza by Palestinians (sadly it’s behind a paywall). Then there are organisations such as Combatants for Peace, Breaking the Silence, and B’T Selem.

As for the long-term future of Gaza and the West Bank I do not know a workable solution - either two states with free movement of all people that I mentioned in my last post, creation of a Palestinian state with return of the settlements to Palestine or Egypt become part of Gaza? Dramatically improving the quality of life and improving human rights in Gaza and the West Bank. Some form of right of return for Palestinians. Greater rights for Palestinian refugees in other Arab countries (I remember seeing on BBC4 they are not allowed to work in certain professions). In the meantime lots of small-scale initiatives such as more joint Jewish-Arab schools, getting ordinary Israelis and Palestinians to meet and talk and economic cooperation? I am not sure whether I fully agree with the boycott of Israel, but at least it’s a non-violent approach that is gaining momentum.

Honey badger that FB page is absolutely disgusting and racist. Did you read the comments underneath? Things like 'hitler was right'. You should be ashamed of yourself for linking to that page. I do wonder how you have come across it and whether this is something you align yourself to. Absolutely shocked and horrified you think that link is acceptable.

Completely agree, KareninsGirl. I've been trying to keep up with this thread but haven't contributed - feel that others here are a lot more knowledgeable & I'd rather read & digest.

But anyone can see that that FB page is utterly vile & antisemitic. Can only assume that HoneyBadger didn't read those awful comments.