I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

Ignore it Donnie, it was a stupid post which made no sense anyhow.

Although you might enjoy your apparent status as international shit stirrer and being single handedly responsible for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict....

So if we were going for the top jobs that would actually sort this out, what would you pick? I'm thinking media chief.

I think the settlements have to be dismantled - there is no excuse for them to be there - I agree with Donnie on this (hard as it is to say) - their existence is aggressive and confrontational in the extreme. Dismantle them and give Hamas no reason to fire rockets - and if they do then at least the international community will have to shut up.

But the rockets have absolutely nothing to do with settlements.

There are no settlements in gaza. The rockets aren't coming from the West Bank.

Hamas have NEVER meniotned the settlements once. They wouldn't - since they see Israel itself as being illegitimate. If you differentiate the settlements then you give legitimacy to Israel (or the Zionist entity as they call it).

Anyone care to speculate why rockets come out of Gaza but not the West Bank?

And pick a job that would make a difference...

Israel has a long list of illegal actions and war crimes of its own. You can say what you like about Hamas, the truth is that had Israel not been so oppressive towards the Palestinian people then Hamas would not have gained much support.

From telegraph:
Amnesty International called Israeli soldiers trigger happy. It mentioned Israel's offenive on West Bank over the last 3 years as
"excessive force to stifle dissent and freedom of expression" since
In the report, Amnesty International goes as far as to accuse Israel of "war crimes and other serious violations of international law" against Palestinians.

'The report notes that more Palestinians living in the West Bank had been killed last year than in 2012 and 2011 combined, and said that more than 8,000 Palestinians - including 1,500 children - have been wounded by rubber bullets and tear gas since 2011.'

Excerpts below taken from Haaretz:

'Palestinian children in Gaza and the West Bank, occupied by Israel in the 1967 war, are routinely denied registration of their birth and access to health care, decent schools and clean water, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child said.'

'It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.'

'The UN committee regretted Israel's "persistent refusal" to respond to requests for information on children in the Palestinian territories and occupied Syrian Golan Heights since the last review in 2002.'

'During the 10-year period, an estimated 7,000 Palestinian children aged 12 to 17, but some as young as nine, had been arrested, interrogated and detained, the UN report said.'

'Many are brought in leg chains and shackles before military courts, while youths are held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months, the report said.'

Thankfully, the Israeli nursery was empty. Looking at how many children Israel has killed....How many nurseries and schools full of children would that be????? Or do israeli nursery buildings have more value than the lives of Palestinian children

Yrapita - are you Palestinian or from a country with a history with Israel?your completely single minded hatred and bias is only explained if you are.

Those are the words of Amnesty International and UN committee.

Actually, yruapita, if Fatah wouldn't have been so corrupt and riddled with cronyism then Hamas wouldn't have been so popular.

And the truth is that Islamic extremism is spreading throughout the Arab and Muslim world. Look at the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Look at Turkey. Look at the support for Al-Qaeda even among British Muslims who go off to fight in Syria.

I think most people here have agreed that the occupation is ugly and Israel has committed human rights violations.

However, although I think you should remember that it is Hamas who are firing rockets from civilian areas and thus committing war crimes against their OWN people. I find that extremely chilling. I mean, it's one thing that they're proudly trying to kill innocent Israelis but quite another that they wish to martyr their own civilians as well!

I must admit, it did think it ironic that you brought up the "occupied Syrian Golan Heights", the residents of which are not under military occupation but have the full civil rights of all Israelis. Have you ever spoken to any of these people that you are so concerned about? Do you realise that, actually, they are quite relieved that they under Israeli rule - because Syria is not exactly a utopia of human rights!!! ISIS and Al Qaeda absolutely detest and slaughter the Druze (the main Arab population of the Golan Hieghts) as they see them as heretics. The Nusra front took Quneitra a Syrian town close to the border with Israel at some point and committed a massacre against the Druze there. The Druze in the "occupied Golan Heights" (it's not occupied btw, it was annexed) were not massacred, what a human rights violation!

As I've said before, there's a lot you can legitimately criticize Israel for - but the human rights situation on the Golan is not one I'm afraid. In fact, it's almost laughable considering what's happening just yards across the border.

BTW, one of the slogans of Hamas is "After Saturday, comes Sunday".

They don't intend to stop at killing Jews....

'The UN committee regretted Israel's "persistent refusal" to respond to requests for information on children in.....occupied Syrian Golan Heights since the last review in 2002.'

I am no fan of Assad or ISIS either, but let that not detract from Israel's track record of vile treatment of children. We have recently seen what israeli police did to the young boy who is the cousin of the boy burnt alive Refusal to provide information doesn't look great.

And one last thing yruapita.

Just because you're quoting from Amnesty Intn'l and the UN, doesn't mean it's not one sided.

I could also quote regarding PA and Hamas violations against both Israelis AND Palestinians.

I think we can agree that there are human rights violations on both sides. The Palestinians are particularly fucked since they have to deal with not only human rights violations by Israel but just as much by their own people.

Such as this from Human Rights Watch
"In the West Bank, Palestinian Authority (PA) security services beat peaceful demonstrators, and arbitrarily detained and harassed scores of journalists. Credible allegations of torture committed by the PA's security services persisted. In Gaza, Hamas committed executions after unfair trials. The authorities permitted some local human rights organizations to operate, but suppressed political dissent, free association, and peaceful assembly."

Or from amnesty
"The latest news is that four Gaza Palestinians are facing execution after being given the death penalty by Hamas military and criminal courts. There are reports that at least one of the four “confessed” to the crime of murder after being tortured. The family of Na’el Jamal Qandil Doghmosh has stated that when they saw him after two months in prison, his nails had been torn out and there were burns and bruises on his body"

And also from HRW
"Human Rights Watch (HRW) this week released a report detailing the unlawful killings and torture of Palestinians by Hamas during the recent Gaza conflict. This report confirms Amnesty’s own findings, published in February, of instances where Hamas murdered and tortured Palestinians. They accused the victims of “collaborating” with Israel, or the victims were members of opposing Palestinian parties, including Fatah.

The HRW report provides a more in depth analysis of the situation. The report claims that Hamas forces and masked gunmen alleged to be members of Hamas extra-judicially executed more than 30 people since December and injured dozens more by shooting them in the leg. Those responsible must be held accountable for their actions and the government of Hamas should address these crimes. According to HRW, the Hamas authorities have begun investigations into only four of these cases, but more needs to be done. Hamas should work to uphold international law and protect human rights as it has said that it will do"

I'd agree that Palestinian children are not accorded the full legal rights and protections that they should have.

But there's no problem with children's rights on the Golan Heights. They have full legal protection under Israeli civil law.

I don't know the full picture there. What information were they asking for and why? Maybe it simply wasn't available. Do you know?

As I've said before, there's enough to legitimately criticize Israel for without having to try to make things worse than they are. There is simply not a human rights problem on the golan heights where there is Israeli civil law.

I didn't see anything hateful in Yruapita's post.

IIRC the Golan Heights were disputed but given back under the old Assad senior regime, a massive deal as it meant guns were theoretically pointing down at Syria rather than down at Israel. I didn't know there was any sort of worry about human rights there.

27 palestinians dead and 130 injured as reported by al jazeera.

How many more deaths today? I'm scared of the brutality too quivering. It just seems to be escalating.

Exactly quivering.

If Hamas hid the rocket stockpiles and launchers outside of built up areas, how many Palestinian civilian casualties would there be? None or very few.

They won't do that though because they know it's then too easy for Israel to take them out. For Hamas, it's far more important to be able to kill israeli civilians than protect Palestinian ones.

Israel phones the inhabitants of buildings it intends to bomb because of suspected rocket fire to tell them to evacuate. It then fires a small mortar before the air attack to further warn the inhabitants. In one of these cases last night, the Hamas militants told the civilians (mostly from their own extended families as it was the home of a number of militants), including children, not to leave and to gather on the roof as human shields.

Any deaths are tragic. But Israel is legally entitled to respond and should indeed be held to account if it doesn't try to minimize civilian casualties. But Hamas, the elected representatives of the Palestinian people, need to stop intentionally putting their own civilians at risk.

Israel is legally entitled to respond, but 160 air strikes in one night? ! That's quite a response and is one of the reason Israel is seen as an aggressor internationally. Continuing to blame Hamas for the deaths resulting from israeli air strikes will not absolve Israel of blame.

Does Israel believe that this kind of action will stop Hamas firing long range rockets into Israel (no deaths or injuries reported)? No it won't. It will fire up even more Hamas sympathisers in Palestine and worldwide.

Yes of course there is a difference quivering. But the loss of lives isn't just a 'numbers game' these numbers are people, fathers, brothers, mothers, daughters. The response, once again, is completely disproportionate.

I have friends in tel a iv and I am not concerned for their welfare and neither are they. They have a well equipped bomb shelter and even they are shocked at the level of response overnight.

I don't personally think there's much gain to be had in working out who is the most to blame for individual incidents. Both sides are to blame for the general situation and working out exact proportions of blame-worthiness only results in endless arguments and counter-arguments that produce further complications barring the way to peace. People still argue about the finer points of things that happened out of living memory. I've never seen it helping anyone.

If you'll bear with me banging on again about education and understanding, the arguments won't solve anything, steps to produce a level of shared interest and compassion will.