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Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 8

986 replies

Roussette · 15/05/2014 09:14

here is Number 7.

OP posts:
LookingThroughTheFog · 08/09/2014 12:47

They would have to find him guilty first though.

HibiscusIsland · 08/09/2014 13:28

Yes, Andrew Harding is arguing in the article that a finding of either premeditated murder or an acquittal are looking unlikely now and that either murder - dolus eventualis (possible 20 years) or culpable homicide, (around 10- to 15-years) are likely. Who knows though? Perhaps he will be acquitted or be found guilty of premiditated murder after all.

NormaSwilley · 09/09/2014 02:05

And if we turn to OP's intruder explanation then imo it's what is missing that's significant : no alarm going off; no panic button used; no calls to the police about the intruder

No mention of his dogs barking

emotionsecho · 09/09/2014 12:03

When is this back in court, I thought it was the 8th September but not heard anything?

HibiscusIsland · 09/09/2014 13:08

I think it's this Thursday according to BBC website

emotionsecho · 09/09/2014 13:14

Thanks.

upnorthfelinefan · 10/09/2014 02:53

Hello all I am back with a huge note. Thanks in advance for allowing me to be part of the blog. Like I said before I have been obsessed with the case and have no one else to talk to it about.

Reading the Heads of Arguments and revisiting the ear witness testimony was very eye opening for me. Mr Roux's time line made me look at the entire case in totality rather than countless separate pieces. Once I did the pieces stated falling into place. It is the State's contention that the shots were the second set of bangs that extinguished Reeeva's screams. Mr Nel made no effort to suggest what the first set of bangs might have been. Forensics proved that the toilet door was damaged by the cricket bat. Forensics also confirmed that the toilet door was in tact when the shots were fired into it. However, it has been implied by the State that the door may have been damaged to some extent prior to the shots. It was also the State's belief that Oscar was on his stumps when beating the door with the cricket bat.

t is an undisputed fact that one set of bangs were gunshots as Reeva was shot. Mr Nel had two State Witnesses testifying that they heard two sets of bangs that sounded like gunshots. Dr Stipp testified that he had gun experience from his time in the Army and admitted that both sets of bangs sounded like gunshots to him.The second set of bangs sounded enough like the first shots for Dr. Stipp to tell Mrs Stipp to get away from the window. Mrs Stipp testified in cross examination with Mr Oldwage in reference to the first set of bangs “her husband said gunshots, no reason to doubt gunshots”. Because of the similarity in sound he was forced to deal with the additional set of bangs and since there was no indication of any other damage in the house to account for the sound it left the cricket bat hitting the door as the most likely source.

This leads me to understand why Mr Nel didn't want to provide an explanation for the source of the first bangs. The problem Mr. Nel has with putting the bat to the door as the first bangs is that it puts Reeva in the toilet sooner than he wants to.. It has been suggested that Oscar was arguing with Reeva that night and banging on the toilet door with the cricket bat in an attempt to scare Reeva. If he was beating on the door to scare Reeva it would suggest that Reeva was in the toilet with the door at least shut.. If Reeva was in any other room in the house besides the toilet there would be no reason for Oscar to be hitting the toilet door with the cricket bat let alone hard enough to nearly break a panel out to scare her. Per the State's theory Oscar was on his stumps at this time. If Reeva was not in the toilet but rather another part of the house and Oscar was on his stumps and distracted with beating on the toilet door there would be no explanation as to why Reeva did not flee the house. Or at best why she would flee to the toilet. In addition, by placing Reeva in the toilet at the time of the first bangs in addition to being in the toilet when shot would make it extremely difficult for the witnesses to hear all the things they heard from such distances and clarity with Reeva in a closed toilet cubicle. It also makes it very difficult to explain why Reeva would be standing in front of the door facing it if Oscar was on the other side of it hitting it with the cricket bat. It also makes it difficult to explain why Reeva did not make any kind of emergency call for help on her phone since she would have had time.

This brings Mrs. Stipps testimony regarding the voice getting closer and sounding like it was coming down the street into light. She testified that this happened after the first shot but before the second shot. Since there was no other explanation given by Mr Nel for the first bangs it must be the cricket bat hitting the door which put Reeva in the toilet at the time of the first bangs.. We know she was in the toilet when shot. Therefore there would be no explanation for Reeva to be moving or her voice to sound as if it was getting closer. These facts lead to Oscar moving from the passage into the bathroom after shooting through the door as the source of the voice Mrs Stipp was hearing.

Mr Roux's time line made me sit down and compare what all the different ear witnesses testified to hearing. It seems the testimony from the immediate neighbors of Oscar Pistorius was given very little credence. Mr Nel didn't call them as State Witnesses so they didn't help his case. It seemed odd that the people living on either side of the accused would do nothing to help his case. So I laid all the witness testimony side by side and discovered they were the very people that filled in the missing pieces.

What was established by phone logs and the information the police provided of phone calls is that the calls to security occurred at approximately the same time. Dr. Stipp called security at 3:15:51am He reported hearing gunshots. Call lasted 16 seconds. Mr Johnson made a call to the Strubenskop Security at 3:16 call lasted 58 seconds. The Johnson's phoned the security for the place they previously lived by accident. Mr. Nhlengethwa callled security at 3:16:16am with no answer. His second call went through at 3:16:36am lasted 44 seconds. He reported shots heard.

Mrs Stipp, Dr. Stipp, Mrs. van de Merwe, Mr van de Merwe (per Mrs van de Merwe testimony that husband claimed the first shots to be gunshots) and Mrs Nhlegenthwa all testified to hearing the first set of bangs. It seems the first sound may have been louder than the second set of sounds. Which would more likely be the gunshots than the cricket bat hitting the door.

The Stipp's and Burger/Johnson's heard the second sets as well. The Johnson's were both asleep and missed the first shots so had no basis of comparison between the two sets of bangs like the Stipp's did.
Since they were all farther away than the immediate neighbors they felt safe going out on balconies to ascertain what was going on.

Mrs Stipp testified she was awake and heard shots, short time later hearing woman screaming.
Dr. Stipp testified to waking up to shots, short time later hearing womans scream.
Mrs van der Merwe testified that she and her husband heard shots pause then loud crying that she thought was a woman but was determined to be Oscar by Mr Van de Merwe.
Mrs. Nhlegenthwa heard bang, pause and a man's voice.

Mr. Nhlegenthwa testified to hearing the man's voice after returning to the bedroom from checking the house after wife hearing bangs.

Rica Motshuane woke to the sounds of a man's voice. She testified he husband also heard it but initially thought he was dreaming. She indicated the crying was continuous. They did not hear the bangs but the crying was continuous indicating it was after the first set of bangs.

The Burger/Johnson woke to a woman screams then woman scream help and a man scream help, help,help, continuous screams and bangs.

Mrs Nhlegenthwa, Carice Stander, Dr Stipp, Carl Johnson and`Michelle Burger, all heard help, help, help in a man's voice. It seems unlikely and hard to explain how the people living the farthest away were the only ones to hear a woman scream help one time. It seems very unlikely Oscar Pistorius would cry for help before shooting Reeva. It would be unlikely he would want to draw extra attention to the situation if he planned on shooting Reeva.

In comparing all of this it seems they were all hearing the same thing at the same time. The immediate neighbors heard a man's voice and the neighbors farther away hear a woman's voice. Mrs.van de Merwe thought she heard a woman's voice but husband knew it was Oscar's voice. With these facts in addition to no one testifying to ever hearing the voices muffled like they were coming from an enclosed space due to Reeva being in the toilet with the door closed can only lead to the conclusion that the voice was coming from Oscar Pistorius.

Mrs van de Merwe's testimony regarding the argument leaves room for doubt. She could not tell where the voice was coming from, which language it was or what was being spoken but the voice sounded angry. She testified to hearing one voice only. And it was far off. If she was able to hear the man's voice after the bangs then the woman's voice she was hearing earlier had to be loud too. If it was loud enough for her to hear from the distance of her house it would seem likely the immediate neighbors would have heard it as well. It is hard to explain that she was the only one to hear this. It is also hard to understand how she could have only heard one persons voice for an entire hour of on and off talking/arguing between two people. It sounds more like she was lhearing one side of a phone conversation. It is also hard to explain how the security guard did not see any lights on or hear any arguing coming from Oscar Pistorius's house at 2:20am when the guard track was activated. On a normal night sounds of an argument may not be reported or recorded by security guards but if there had been some sign of trouble that night it would have been very important and mentioned to police.

The different emotions ear witnesses testified to hearing such as terrified, petrified, fearful, severe emotion, anguish, out of mind, distress, panicking These are all reasonable emotions for Oscar Pistorius to have been expressing in response to the events of that night as he described them. The absence of any mention of anger is very telling.

The Stipp's testified to hearing intermingled voices of a man and a woman. There was no mention of hearing different emotions in the voices. Oscar and Reeva would certainly be feeling different things at the time if they were arguing and Reeva was frightened. They would have heard Anger in Oscar's voice and fear in Reeva's voice. There is no possible way to explain the voices being intermingled without hearing the different emotions under the circumstances.

Something I found very telling in the Defense Heads of Arguments is (page 46 line 136) where Mr. Roux pointed out that Dr. Saayman testified that due to inter alia enzymes and hydrochloric acid in the stomach, the physical process of digestion did not stop at the time of death. The body of the deceased was only refrigerated at approximately 11:45 which was about 10 hours after the last food intake estimated by Professor Saayman. Notwithstanding, there was still recognisable food content in the stomach, an occurrence which in applying Professor Saayman's theory regarding gastric emptying could not be possible. My thought is why would there have been any recognisable food in her stomach at all even if she had eaten at say 1:00am? After 10 hours if digestion continued there should not have been any recognisable food in her stomach period if she had eaten at 7pm or 1am. Finding recognizable food should have been unexpected and seems it should have raised a red flag for the Professor and made it necessary for him to conduct further examinations such as the opening of the duodenum which he did not do to help explain the unusual occurrence. Since he did not do this it seems very difficult to understand how he could conclude Reeva had taken in her last meal 2 hours give or take prior to death. It seems very convenient that the recognizable food content happened to be what Oscar Pistorius testified to having for dinner and happens to coincide with the alleged argument occurring at 2am. It also raises questions as to why pathologist Reggie Perumal did not testify.

Aside from Dr Saayman's suggestion that Reeva ate 2 hours more or less prior to death there is nothing else to indicate that actually happened. There was no indication of dirty dishes in the bedroom or kitchen aside from two mugs on the bedside tables. It seems unlikely they would have a warm drink in the bedroom during the evening yet not eat dinner but wait instead until 1am to eat. It seems very unlikely an athlete and model that did swim suit modeling would eat dinner at 1am. If they were arguing it seems unlikely they would stop to fix a meal, eat the meal and clean up the dishes during or after the argument. If they did eat dinner at 7pm and Reeva went downstairs to have a snack it seems it would have been something light and easy to fix rather than dragging the leftovers from dinner out and heating them up and cleaning up afterwards. There just seems to be nothing to back up Dr Saayman's findings.

The missing electrical cord is very troubling. Aside from the door it was one of the pieces of evidence to show to the court to prove Oscar Pistorius was lying about the fans. The cord was a vital part of Mr Nel's case and seems like a very important piece of evidence. It seems odd Mr. Nel was not more upset about its disappearance.

It seems Mr. Nel was a bit threatened by Mr Wolmarans testimony as he felt the need to discredit him in his Heads of Argument Mr Wolmarans is a man with a great number years of experience. It would be hard to argue he didn't have great knowledge in his field.Mr Wolmarans pointed out that it was unlikely Reeva would have been in a defensive position after the hip wound Wollie says that if the hand was on the head then he would have expected the exit wound to cause secondary injuries to the inside of her hand since there were fragments of bullet exiting from that wound. Furthermore, if the hand was covering part of the head then he would not have expected the brain tissue to have traveled as far as it did against the toilet lid. The hand would have blocked it and the matter would be on the inside of the hand which it was not. This would discredit Captain Mangena's theory that with the head wound, her hands were very likely held up across her head in a defensive position, as there was a bullet wound in between her pointer and middle finger on her left hand. Mr.Wolmarans had a lot of other real good points but I am running our of time to get this posted before the verdict.

I hope I haven't bored you all stiff. I have tried to stick with pure evidence presented and hope that I have not led anyone astray with my thoughts. With all of this said it is very clear to me that Oscar Pistorius did not intentionally kill Reeva.

LookingThroughTheFog · 10/09/2014 12:56

Do you think he intended to kill anyone that night, UpNorth?

upnorthfelinefan · 10/09/2014 15:23

You know Looking that is something I haven't resolved yet. From the evidence, in my mind it was a terrible accident. He did indeed kill Reeva I don't deny that. The issue I deal with after that is intent. I realize shooting through a closed door especially in a room the size of the toilet would more likely than not result in the death of the person behind the door. However, do I think when he intentionally armed himself that night and approached the perceived danger that the utmost thought on his mind was "I am going to kill the person behind that door" I don't know. It seems to me that the first thing on his mind was to protect himself and Reeva. I am very unsure as to whether I think that before and while he was firing the gun he was telling himself "that when I shoot, the result of firing into this small room is going to result in the death of the person on the other side". I can't ignore the fact that the man is a double amputee and would have been at a terrible disadvantage if someone had come out of the door. I realize it seems like he wasn't thinking of Reeva at the time but wanting to protect Reeva may have somehow caused a more extreme reaction from him. I feel he may have been more in survival mode than anything else. Since he has limited mobility due to his disability I can accept that his first reaction was to immediately respond to the threat so near by. Fleeing was of course an option but in a foot race I don't think he would have gotten very far. I realize that he could have put on his prosthetics but at the same time that takes time and time is something he wouldn't have a lot of so I don't know if that would have entered his mind. I guess what I am saying is I am not 100 percent sure the shooting was motivated by pure malice but instead a pure desire to protect himself and Reeva. All I do know for sure is that a beautiful soul was taken from this earth far too soon as a result of his actions. I do not have a disability let alone one as severe as Oscar Pistorius so can't begin to imagine how I would react in a similar situation. I have no idea what the punishment should be. Fortunately it is not up to me to decide.

JillJ72 · 10/09/2014 16:02

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Upnorth. I think the verdict is due tomorrow. I expect a sentence, I am purely guessing here - around the 10 year mark, because he killed, whether intentionally or as a terrible accident, and that needs to be reflected in the verdict.

HelenaQC · 10/09/2014 16:39

Upnorth

Some food for thought:

Nel doesn't have to explain the first bangs. It is not a weakness in the case that he hasn't. Nobody was there that night except Oscar Pistorius and Reeva and there's absolutely no way that the judge will expect him (Nel) to pluck an explanation out of thin air. He presumably doesn't have any evidence for what the first bangs were and he is not allowed to speculate.

So, I believe the judge is likely to consider this irrelevant.

If she really needs an explanation, then it's right there in the record. Colonel Vermuelen could not rule out OP using the bat before the shooting to scare Reeva. Since Dr Stipp said both sets of bangs sounded identical, then either the first or the second could have been the bath. Same goes for the gun.

The judge will also be aware that well meaning witnesses will often get details mixed up so will look at points of corroboration. I, personally think it extremely unlikely that she will get bogged down in who woke up when because it will be impossible to get to the bottom of that.

But the facts of the case are actually very clear. There was a loud series of bangs somewhere around 3.15. Every ear witness heard this.

And every witness prior to that who heard anything heard a female screaming in terror, intermingled with a male voice.

In order for OP to be telling the truth, then all four of these witnesses had to make the exact two mistakes at the exact same time....

They had to believe that female sounding screams were actually male
They had to believe that one voice was actually two

We also have to assume that Johnson and Burger completely dreamed the male/female helps - to the degree that they both report the male sounded less scared (almost embarrassed) than the female. An odd memory to have of something that simply didn't happen.

Not likely, on the balance of probabilities.

It is also worth pointing out that after the loud bang at around 3.15, virtually every every witness who reported hearing a voice say it was definitely male. Even in the case of Dr Stipp who heard the female one earlier too.

I don't think that it's sensible to simply disregard the most basic facet of this case, either....as Roux has done.

Does Oscar Pistorius sound like a woman when he screams? Most men do not, and most people can tell the difference very easily. Even the defence witness Lin conceded that it would be an unlikely mistake to make.

The witnesses were told there would be expert evidence proving that OP screams like a woman. There was none. This is extremely crucial.....because why wasn't there? The defence had tests done, and yet chose not to play them to the witnesses or the court. The only possible inference here is that, actually, he doesn't sound like a woman in the slightest.....and if he doesn't then there is not the slightest reason to suppose he did that night.

This was a fundamental part of his case....he sounds like a woman. Not just that the witnesses mistook him for a woman, but that he actually sounds like a woman. They didn't prove that. And that is a huge problem.

Roux is not correct regarding Saayman's testimony of the stomach contents.

Professor Saayman is an extremely experienced pathologist, as is Botha...between them they have over 50,000 autopsies under their belts.

It is on the balance of ALL the necessary information that Saayman determined when Reeva last ate - and it is highly improbable in the extreme that she could have had recognisable food in her stomach if she last ate at 7/8pm.

I do not believe it's remotely likely that the judge will dismiss this extremely experienced pathologists report in favour of the unqualified Roux's take on the matter.

Reeva's stomach contents are only really important when you consider it alongside the testimony of Mrs Van Der Merwe.

She heard a loud female voice engaged in an argument nearby.

No other woman has come forward to say it was her and it is sufficiently unusual to hear something like in the middle of the night for it to be curious in the extreme that it just happened to occur an hour or so before a female neighbour was shot dead by her boyfriend.

Circumstantial, but suggestive. It is only then that Reeva's stomach contents become vital because they prove that she could easily have been the woman VDM heard because she was quite likely to have been up around that time.

So, the upshot for me is that while Roux has done the best he could for OP, he has failed to address the actual bones of the matter....

Reeva was not asleep at 1-2 am and four educated, unbiased, awake neighbours heard a woman screaming in blind terror.

And I don't think it's feasible to conclude that, even if he does have a female sounding voice, that he would have been likely to have been screaming in that way if he was edging down a corridor to confront an intruder. And if he was, it's really, really, really unlikely that Reeva wouldn't have attempted to communicate with him.

JMO.

HelenaQC · 10/09/2014 16:42

Wish you could edit posts on here.....

I meant "bat" rather than "bath"

And

"They had to believe a male screaming was actually female"

Sorry for any confusion. I am a lousy typist Blush

LookingThroughTheFog · 10/09/2014 16:56

In some ways, I wish I could see OP in as generous a light as you, UpNorth.

To my mind, even aside from whether I think that he knew it was Reeva or not, I can't get my mind past the following:

  • He kept his weapon pre-loaded with bullets specifically designed to fragment on impact with human flesh, and then to tear that flesh apart. He'd chosen his weapon for maximum damage. He did that before he was even scared.
  • He didn't call for assistance, but instead decided to approach the toilet himself. He gave the intruder no means of escape.
  • He shot once, and then changed his aim to shoot the person in the head. He did not stop shooting until they were dead. He didn't shoot in the hip to disarm and disorientate and then stop - he continued to put bullets into the person.

To my mind, those three points make him into a murderer.

upnorthfelinefan · 10/09/2014 17:20

All good points. Like you said HelenaQC JMO. These are the types of things that are more than likely going on behind closed chamber doors. Like the witnesses, we all interpret things differently. It has been an interesting 6 months or so. Judgement day is tomorrow and we will know for sure one way or another what the future holds for Oscar Pistorius. I have always been a true crime fanatic but nothing has captivated me like this case. I need to get back to my regularly scheduled routine and move on. My DH is more than tired of me taking notes and constantly rolling around the case in my head. Hopefully there won't be another tragedy of this type or level that will bring us all back to this board any time soon.

upnorthfelinefan · 10/09/2014 17:52

Article regarding how the verdict is delivered.

www.freep.com/article/20140910/NEWS07/309100110/Oscar-Pistorius-verdict-murder-trial

LookingThroughTheFog · 10/09/2014 18:14

Thanks, UpNorth. That is quite a convoluted process! Another hearing before sentencing, and then after sentencing, potentially yet another appeal trial. I sort of assumed that at some point tomorrow morning we'd get a 'Guilty' or 'Not Guilty'.

Also it clarifies the Culpable Homicide thing for me. I thought that Roux made the point that he wasn't on trial for that, but if that article is accurate, that won't matter - he could still be found guilty of it.

upnorthfelinefan · 10/09/2014 18:22

I too thought we would know one way or another tomorrow. As you pointed out IF the article is accurate there is still a ways to go. I had no idea. I guess I will have to be distracted for a while longer.

HelenaQC · 10/09/2014 18:35

Oh, just to add, Up - in case it sounds like I'm evangelising, I really wasn't. Your take is as valid as mine. Neither of us was there.

I agree with Fog.

I think there's been a tendency for us all to slightly assume that "didn't know it was Reeva" = innocent.

Whatever the circumstances, he knew there was a human being behind that door. He chose to confront and he chose to shoot.

That is murder. Deliberate murder. And I think he deserves to go to prison for a long, long time.

Although I am totally convinced he did know it was Reeva, personally.

upnorthfelinefan · 10/09/2014 18:53

No problem helena I never felt that way. You are right that none of us knows what happened. We have all formed our own opinion. I guess the biggest difference for me is that my interest in the trial has always been the puzzle of the case and trying to figure it out and if he intentionally killed Reeva. I can't explain why but the judgement part is not what has captivated me. I guess you could say I am more interested in the detective side of the case as opposed to the law side. I am sure you are all right and the verdict will reflect that due to the fact the end result was a person being murdered. All I know is I would not want to be in the Judge's shoes.

JillJ72 · 10/09/2014 19:17

Barry Bateman twitter feed says 1-2 days and verdict. If guilty will have to reapply for bail.

No word on sentencing.

member · 11/09/2014 06:57

Thanks for the link on the process of delivering verdict

LookingThroughTheFog · 11/09/2014 08:12

It hasn't started yet, but when it does, I think it should be streamed here:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/11087281/Oscar-Pistorius-verdict-live.html

My experience from last time is that the Telegraph was more stable than the Guardian stream. I haven't checked the BBC one yet.

LookingThroughTheFog · 11/09/2014 08:16

Though the Guardian one should you favour that is here

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/sep/11/oscar-pistorius-verdict-trial-live

LookingThroughTheFog · 11/09/2014 08:19

This is a neat little summary from the Guardian. I'm not sure it says anything that people here don't know, but here it is anyway:

The charges Pistorius faces
If Masipa finds Pistorius guilty of premeditated murder – that is, he knowingly intended to kill Steenkamp, or deliberately decided to kill an intruder – he would face a mandatory life sentence. It would be 25 years before he would even be considered for parole.

The judge will also consider whether he is guilty of murder without premeditation: an intent to kill, but with no planning, in the heat of the moment. Sentencing for a guilty verdict here is at the judge’s discretion.

There is also the possibility of a manslaughter, or culpable homicide, conviction, if the judge believes Pistorius’ claim that he did not mean to kill Steenkamp, but decides he acted recklessly or negligently in firing into the locked door.

Pistorius could be acquitted if the judge accepts his account that he genuinely feared for his life and thought he was acting in self-defence.

Alongside the charge of murder, Pistorius is accused of two counts of discharging firearms in public, and another of illegal possession of ammunition.

Discharging firearms in public, first count: The prosecution says he discharged a firearm at a restaurant in January 2013. Pistorius said his friend Darren Fresco had passed him the loaded gun and denies he pulled the trigger. In closing arguments, defence counsel Barry Roux said Pistorius had made a mistake and should be found guilty of a lesser charge of negligently discharging the firearm.

Discharging firearms in public, second count: Pistorius is accused of firing a gun through a car sunroof while he was with Fresco and Pistorius’ then girlfriend Samantha Taylor in November 2012. The athlete says he became angry after a police officer inspected his gun when the car was stopped for speeding; the gun was apparently lying on a car seat. But he denies firing a gun. Both Taylor and Fresco say he did.

Illegal possession of ammunition: Pistorius is charged with being in possession of .38 ammunition; he does not have a licence for a gun that takes that ammunition, a permit to be in possession of it or a dealer’s licence. Pistorius told the court the bullets belonged to his father and he had them for safe-keeping.

If found guilty, Pistorius could face five years in prison on each of the first two counts, and 15 years for the illegal possession of ammunition.

LookingThroughTheFog · 11/09/2014 08:19

(Sorry - I'm slightly manic this morning. I've taken meds so should settle soon and stop with the spamming.)

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