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Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 5

999 replies

Roussette · 18/04/2014 17:46

Time for a new thread - Part 4 nearly full

OP posts:
BookABooSue · 03/05/2014 17:02

Duh! Sorry that should have said:
shouted for help from the balcony after he had fired the shots, returned to the bedroom , and realised it might have been Reeva

BookABooSue · 03/05/2014 17:05

Sorry that was all in response to a previous poster who asked about when OP screamed.

emotionsecho · 03/05/2014 17:15

Rousette yes please to a new thread and yes the trial restarts on Monday it's not a holiday in South Africa.

Roussette · 03/05/2014 17:19

here is Part 6 ready for when this fills up.

OP posts:
LookingThroughTheFog · 03/05/2014 17:42

Thank you, Roussette. Annoyingly, I'm not likely to be able to hear much on Monday.

member · 03/05/2014 18:03

I'm not going to be able to hear much of Monday's proceedings either. Have posted very little since the suspension of the trial & am still in the camp of Dolus Eventualis. I don't think Dolus Directus can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt i.e that the shooting was as a result of an argument & that he absolutely knew it was Reeva he was firing at.

I think Dolus Eventualis can be proven i.e that even if he did not know it was Reeva, he could have forseen the consequences of his actions. Indeed, to underpin his experience with guns, he chose not to fire a warning shot because of the chance of ricochet. The toilet cubilcle is smaller & multiple shots were fired, thus the chances of ricochet/fatal injury were multiplied.

YNK · 03/05/2014 18:26

I think it could be dolus directus (murder) even if he thought it was a burglar and not Reeva so long as it can be proved he shot to kill or am I wrong about that?

Hillwalker · 03/05/2014 18:30

Yes, just read the definitions again and dolus directus seems possible to me.

member · 03/05/2014 18:45

I thought Directus meant you had to know the identity?

Hillwalker · 03/05/2014 18:58

As I understand it, dolus directus occurs when there is direct intent. The accused both foresees and wants the unlawful outcome, in this case the death of the occupant of the toilet.

YNK · 03/05/2014 19:06

Thanks hillwalker.

LouiseBrooks · 03/05/2014 19:07

Emotions I didn't watch all of it as I was cooking dinner but it was somewhat scary. CCTV footage showed one car being basically hemmed in when it stopped at traffic lights, the 3 (I think) occupants were chucked out and then the (ared) hijackers drove off. I'd say it was worth a look.

Not sure about the timing, Isn't the Dewani hearing starting soon?

YNK · 03/05/2014 19:19

So that was where Nel was heading with the question "Why Black Talon bullets?", because the likelihood of surviving a hollow point is far less than with an ordinary bullet.
That has nudged me even more in the direction of murder, although I was pretty much there already.

emotionsecho · 03/05/2014 19:32

Louise thanks, I'll have a look to see if it is on catch-up. I don't know when the Dewani trial starts but he has been extradited to SA so I guess it will be underway soon.

member · 03/05/2014 19:35

1.The Indictment

There’s been a lot of talk about Oscar being charged with ‘pre-meditated murder’, however, looking at the indictment he’s charged simply with murder, which under South African law is the unlawful and intentional killing of a person. The fact we now know there was never a burglar in that house makes the killing unlawful, even by his version. His defence accepts Reeva’s killing was unlawful, the dispute is whether or not it was intentional.

In looking at intention, the concepts of murder directus (dolus directus) and murder eventualis (dolus eventualis) come into play. Under directus he fired those shots knowing it was Reeva and intending to kill her. Under eventualis he shot believing it was a burglar but could foresee the possibility that he would kill the burglar and went ahead and shot anyway. Hence the charge is a double barrelled one so to speak. The State will argue (a) “you shot Reeva after an argument fully intending to kill her and (b) “even if we accept your version that you thought it was a burglar, you still shot knowing you would kill that burglar”. The fact he overrode a gun with a double safety mechanism, not once but four times, to fire black talon ammunition into a tiny cubicle makes it unbelievable that he did not intend to kill the person behind the door even by his version.

If Judge Masipa finds it was murder directus Pistorius will probably get a life sentence and if she finds it was eventualis, he’ll get a lighter sentence.

  1. Motive is irrelevant

In the public arena there’s been much talk that Oscar couldn’t possibly be guilty of murder because the State hasn’t proved motive. However, an important fact has been overlooked; the State doesn’t have to prove motive to get a conviction! While motive is nice to know the State can still show that, for example, as a competent gun owner he shot fully understanding the consequences of his actions and with full intent to kill. Proving why he formed this intention is his motive and not essential for conviction.

It’s also relevant to note here that intent can be a decision made a few minutes before he shot, it need not mean he sat up plotting it weeks in advance.

  1. Circumstantial evidence is evidence

Oscar’s supporters often state “we’ll never know what happened that night”, “It’s between him and his God” and “who are we to judge?” as if somehow this gives him immunity from being held accountable! The fact that the only other person in the house that night is dead necessarily makes the State’s case a circumstantial one. However, circumstantial evidence should not be assumed to be weak or invalid.

Remember, criminals are convicted on circumstantial evidence every day and it can often be more reliable than direct evidence. Circumstantial evidence requires some inference or reasoning in order to prove a fact as opposed to direct evidence from an eye witness or participant for example but can be strong evidence nonetheless.

  1. And then there’s Culpable Homicide

Even if Oscar Pistorius is found not guilty of murder, Judge Masipa can still find him guilty of culpable homicide. The difference of culpable homicide from murder is that the unlawful killing is negligent rather than intentional. Here the Judge will use the reasonableness test – would a reasonable person have shot four times into that toilet without determining who was in it or indeed where his girlfriend was who hadn’t answered any of his shouts?

I dare say I don’t see him walking away scott-free from both types of murder and culpable homicide. And neither should he!

From everyafricanwoman.com/?p=1608

Roussette · 03/05/2014 19:44

Thank you member that was interesting to read.

OP posts:
emotionsecho · 03/05/2014 19:57

Brillaint member that clarifies the law relating to the case, thanks.

AmIthatSpringy · 03/05/2014 20:20

Thanks for the link Member it was an interesting read Smile

StackALee · 03/05/2014 21:47

YNK, you say the comments made by her management that Louise talked about were made before her death? So not the link that Louise posted as the was a programme made after her death.

What were the comments made before her death and do you have a link?

YNK · 03/05/2014 22:01

Those were on the link I provided Stack, I never said it contained comments, did i?

On Louises link the spokesperson referred to the advice they gave to RS before she was killed but refused to elaborate.

Have you noticed something I missed or is there something you can add?

YNK · 03/05/2014 22:06

Sorry Stack I think I must have misunderstood your question. They can't really have advised her after her death.

StackALee · 03/05/2014 22:14

"I'll say I though she was an intruder"

Yes, this^^

When people say he had to immediately think of a cover story I think it's very likely the 'intruder' story was the immediate (or at least many minutes later) story, but the detail came later - hence the inconsistencies in his testimony.

StackALee · 03/05/2014 22:19

YNK, my original question, tomlouise, was did they make these comments before or after her death.

You said before.

I just wondered why Louise linked to a programme made after her death.

Could be that

A. She didn't mean those comments
B. I need to actually watch the programme.

My point was that. Many people were annoyed that RS was being reduced to just 'girlfriend of' and so the comments may have been made in that context after her death.

I will watch the programme.

LouiseBrooks · 03/05/2014 22:34

Stack (sorry just saw your original comment, I was in a hurry earlier today).

I was referring to the specific comment made on the programme, which I only saw last night and it never even occurred to me to think did they say it before or after she died because I knew the programme was made after. I see your point but of course since he was a lot more famous than she was, it is inevitable that once they started going out, she would known as "girlfriend of" unless of course subsequently his career declined drastically and she became a major star or something.

I hope this makes sense.

LouiseBrooks · 03/05/2014 22:35

"be known as" - I wish we could edit previous posts.