Oscar Pistorius trial part 3

[JillJ72]

Hiya,

Thread 1 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2022610-Oscar-Pistorius-trial

Thread 2 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2049921-Oscar-Pistorius-trial-part-2

To continue our respectful, open, interesting discussion.

He doesn't have to say 'I am innocent' just a 'none of this was intentional, it's not fair for them to keep saying it was' or something.

I have to agree that if it was me, and I had my mobile phone, I would have started dialing 999.

but everyone is different. Maybe she was frozen with fear.

Thanks Glad.
It's very hard to imagine that level of violence (ie involving a gun) but possibly that's because it's not normal to own a gun here.

I'm interested in how his voice/reactions etc will be now talking about what happened AFTER he started to break down the door.

Because whatever the reality is of what happened before that moment, chances are he has no need to lie/fabricate his story from when he breaks the toilet door open.

BeCool Not sure but I think they said the alarm had been switched off, and they were questioning whether he thought RS could have done it?

Not sure though, I could well be wrong.

I was reading through the earlier days, and thinking about the various witnesses, all of whom say they heard loud arguing before the gunshots, and all of whom said they heard a woman's voice.

There was one particularly compelling one who said she was angry because her son had an exam the next day, which is why the sound of the argument annoyed her. She was very clear that the sound of the argument woke her before the gunshots - in fact, she tried to cover her head with a pillow to block out the argument.

It was one of the things that made me feel that there was no way that it happened in the way Pistorios said.

But, playing Devil's Advocate with myself about the known reliability of even the most reliable witness - how they've proven that particularly in high stress situations, things get remembered out of order or in a confused fashion, and particularly after any news reports come in which start to skew everything that they think they remember.

But that particular witness had a reason to remember things in that order - the argument woke her, which irritated her. So that makes me think that there must have been a row.

But then I thought again; there's no reason to believe both the row and the gunshots both happened in Pistorious' house.

Basically, it really is very tricky, and I'm not surprised to now be sitting on the fence.

They are adjourned because it was five to three there and that's when the court sitting ends for the day. The working day for all involved goes on much later, there will be meetings etc, the judge and assessors will review the days evidence. The sitting times for the court are simply about the time slots each day for the giving of evidence and cross examination. That is just one part of the trail process. They don't knock of early. Could you imagine it would be a fair thorough trail if all had to sit listening or giving testimony for an 8 hour day with just an hour for lunch? You would stop taking anything in quickly and many errors would be made.

I had an oh god moment at the very end there. OP claims he was running here there and everywhere with a cocked gun in his right hand. He then sat on the bed and put his prosthetics on. You simply can't do that one handed or with a gun in one hand. That means for his very ion to be true he would have had to put the gun down, put on his prosthetics and then picked the cocked gun back up again. That isn't panic leading you to forget you have a gun in your hand, that's a conscious thought proses. At that time he claims he now believed it was Reeca in the toilet, the intruder threat was no longer there.
I find that devastating to his version of events. I have been in the reckless living out a fantasy camp but this has pushed me over to the camp that says he knew it was Reeva as it is almost closing nail in the coffin to believing anything much of his story. I find that to believe he didn't know Reeva was behind that door I am having to suspend too much reason.
Every day that passes it just gets worse for OP but there is yet time, Roux will redirect and then we have the defence experts and witnesses. I may yet be shoved in another direction. I really didn't expect so many splinters when the trail started.

I'm interested to know why the state didn't use either of OP next door neighbours as witnesses, I think we are going to see these neighbours from OP side. Will be very interested in knowing what they heard, one neighbour actual bedroom window was on the side the bathroom was.

I believe the state haven't used them because there evidence does not fit the States version, time will tell.

BeCool I'm interested in how his voice/reactions etc will be now talking about what happened AFTER he started to break down the door.

That will be very interesting. And how his tendency to follow a scripted timeline will be now that he is presumably recounting the truth.

I wonder if there's any question on how long he was with RS before he called for help. Are they certain he called immediately, or is there any dispute?

Apart from that, presumably all will be straightforward truth from here on in.

"Reeva was sleeping on the balcony side of the bed."

not according to the testimony?
Or have I got this wrong and all the time she was sleeping by the window?

Signing autographs, fucking hell moments earlier he was breaking down then does that!

GladitsnotJustMe - that's pretty much the version that exists in my head as the most plausible too. Almost word for word.

But a big part of me also thinks that they did start off in bed, and that the argument was possibly that he woke, saw that she hadn't done as he asked and brought the fans in and locked the door. She complained she was too hot with the door closed. He disagreed and got up to do it himself, becoming more annoyed as he struggled with the fans. She went through to the bathroom and opened the window. He heard this, and became incensed that she'd had the audacity to deliberately disobey him once again. He approached the bathroom with the intention of showing her that he had the power.

I'm not convinced that he intended to kill her. The way he views guns is very worrying in my mind.

Obvious speculation here. I'm just saying; that all seems plausible to me. I'm intrigued that as I'm watching, my view is changing back and forth.

I'm very pleased that this is not happening in front of a jury.

I believe she was sleeping on the balcony side (in his version), which makes it even more unrealistic that he didn't hear/feel her getting out of bed.

The autograph said "Thank you for your loving kindness - Oscar".

How utterly crass, narcissistic, and callous. He was in tears literally minutes before that.

I hope Nel mentions this in court and slams him for it.

roadkill not sure I'm following please can you just explain that bit again - so the point he put his prosthetics on was after the shooting in which case why is it not ok to put the gun down?

Interesting re arguing keeping people awake.

He said he slept on the left side that, reeva was on the balcony side, that's why they said if she had got out of bed she would have had to walk quite close to him to get past, it was then mentioned, reeva "could" have got out the other side of bed by claiming across, no one knows which side she got out of bed.

You see... Today I feel like he might be telling the truth! It's utter madness isn't it... Just from hearing his voice at certain points. Madness.

ah right, so was the gun on the other side of the bed (Under where he says he was sleeping)?

if, in the pitch black, she got out of the bed on the balcony side and negotiated her way around ipads and other stuff then surely OP would have seen or heard her?

Also - weren't his legs also on that side?

Roadkill - the having his gun in his hand and then having to put on his prosthetics also crossed my mind, I was waiting for Nel to say something, I'm sure those questions are coming tomorrow.

Stack - yes his gun was on the left side where he was sleeping, his legs were on the balcony side, why were his legs on the other side of the bed?

why is it not ok to put the gun down?

I think the point is it's fine to put the gun down - but not fine to pick it up again, which he did, in order to transport it to the bathroom, where he put it down again.

Again, the critical point is when he knew Reeva was in the toilet. If he knew when he put is prosthetics on, why take the gun back?

I think this is what Nel is honing in on. I think he thinks that Pistorios put it down immediately after the shooting - this is why it was in the bathroom at all. Then he would have had two hands free to open the balcony and to put his legs on.

He could not have put it there immediately if he still thought there were intruders in the house.

Reeva was sleeping by the window. They are using left and right as if you are stud at the end of the bed looking at it.
It just doesn't help his story at all.

In my last post trial was changed by my wonderful phone to trail sorry!

Also - if he believed she was sleeping on the balcony side of the bed and then searched (felt) all around the curtains and the floor as he said he did then surely he would have knocked over the clippers and bumped into the fan, it being pitch black. Plus he would have known for sure that the duvet was on the bed having checked for her (Which is where he says it was).

Stack - he did admit in the quite tight space, if she had got out of that side of bed (balcony side) there was a high probability he would have heard/seen her.

Bonnie I think he said he then picked the gun up again after putting on his legs. Not sure why he would do that, or why he would say that if it wasn't true..?

(Though I would have thought that forensics test must be able to show whether a recently discharged firearm had been pulled across the bed. Though Pistorious said he had it raised the whole time, which might explain why there was no residue on the sheet.)