Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

I should add that "Muscovite" is an offensive word used to designate ethnic Russians living in Ukraine.

You wanted to establish if they were Nazis.

By my reckoning they were both not members if the Nazi party, but people who tried to form a co-operative relationship with Nazi Germany for mutual benefit.

It is you that constantly drags up tales from 70 years ago, selectively eduted in the hope of discrediting people who were not even born then.

So tell me, do you consider a person or an organisation that co-operated with Nazi Germany, to be Nazi?

When the Red Army swapped Polish prisoners with the German army, so that each could subsequently murder them, was the Red Army a Nazi organisation?

Stalin is not a national hero in Ukraine, Bandera is.

Why do you keep deviating into Stalin?

Tell me about Bandera worshiping by Ukrainian youth and the Svoboda party that has 6 sits in the government here and now.

As the BBC reports that
"Svoboda has gone from a fringe party - receiving less than 2% in presidential elections - to a major player in Ukrainian politics. Its members control six positions in the new government, including deputy prime minister, general prosecutor and defence."

You were adking if they were Nazis.

I have said that Bandera and Stalin both co-operated with Nazis. Which we all know is perfectly true. For some reason you are reluctant to admit that Stalin and the Red Army co-operated, even when Britain and other countries had been at war with Nazi Germany for two years. Which we also know is perfectly true.

So, by your reckoning, were Bandera and Stalin Nazis?

From
Per A. Rudling
University of Pittsburgh
www.ucis.pitt.edu/crees/cbpaper.html.

The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths
www.academia.edu/1122859/The_OUN_the_UPA_and_the_Holocaust_A_Study_in_the_Manufacturing_of_Historical_Myths_The_Carl_Beck_Papers_in_Russian_and_East_European_Studies_2107_Pittsburgh_University_Center_for_Russian_and_East_European_Studies_2011_#

The murderers used primarily farm tools—scythes, knives and pitchforks. Orthodox priets blessed such weapons in their churches.

The bodies were often badly mutilated, partly as a byproduct of intimate murder, but were futher tampered with in order to dehumanize the victim and strike terror. Some had their stomachs cut open, noses cut off, or faces smashed in. The display of dismembered, crucified, or disemboweled bodies was meant to instill fear and panic and encourage the Volhynian Poles to flee.

Moshe Maltz, a survivor, wrote in his diary:

When the Bandera gangs seize a Jew, they consider it a prize catch. . . . They literally slash Jews to pieces with their machetes.

Bandera men . . . are not discriminating about who they kill; they are gunning down the populations of entire villages. . . . Since there are hardly any Jews left to kill, the Bandera gangs have turned on the Poles. They are literally hacking Poles to pieces. Every day . . . you can see the bodies of Poles, with wires around their necks, floating down the river Bug.

---

Piglet, how can Bandera be a national hero?

Piglet, do you recognize that Bandera perpetrated Holocaust and genocide of Poles and other ethnic groups?

Goat, you agree that Stalin and Bandera co-operated with Nazi Germany.

Were they therefore Nazis or were they not?

I know it is an important question to you because you raise the topic dozens of times.

What is your answer?

Piglet, are you denying Holocaust by Bandera Nazi?
If not please clarify do you recognize that Bandera perpetrated Holocaust and genocide of Poles ?

You are spinning around trying to avoid the original question.

Do you consider Stalin and Bandera, who both co-operated with Nazi Germany, to be Nazis?

I have already answered twice. What's your answer?

PigletJohn Thu 10-Apr-14 22:09:22

So I really want to understand where do you stand on Bandera

I have already answered that. If you could not comprehend my reply, I will expand. He was a Ukrainian nationalist. When he thought he could take advantage of the Germans to help remove Ukraine from Soviet control (and you are already aware of the millions of deaths in Ukraine resulting from Soviet policies); he tried to take advantage of them. They then deposed and imprisoned him, until, later in the war, when they thought they could take advantage of him, and released him hoping he would harass the Soviet forces.

and

PigletJohn Fri 11-Apr-14 01:40:28 However its my view that they were not members of the Nazi party, and were co-operating with Nazi Germany to try to gain advantage for their own ends, so in my view they were not.

Piglet, are your statements minimising, trivialising or apologising for Bandera Nazi crimes?

Piglet,
are your statements minimising, trivialising or apologising for Bandera Nazi crimes?
or are you denying them all together?

Do you, or do you not, consider that Stalin and Bandera, who both co-operated with Nazi Germany, were therefore Nazis?

Holocaust denial is a crime in most countries of the EU.

Piglet, you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that Bandera was a true Nazi and perpetrated Holocaust.

Do you recognise that Bandera was a Nazi and committed Holocaust and genicid against Poles?

PigletJohn Fri 11-Apr-14 11:27:03
You were adking if they were Nazis.

I have said that Bandera and Stalin both co-operated with Nazis. Which we all know is perfectly true. For some reason you are reluctant to admit that Stalin and the Red Army co-operated, even when Britain and other countries had been at war with Nazi Germany for two years. Which we also know is perfectly true.

PigletJohn Thu 10-Apr-14 22:09:22

So I really want to understand where do you stand on Bandera

I have already answered that. If you could not comprehend my reply, I will expand. He was a Ukrainian nationalist. When he thought he could take advantage of the Germans to help remove Ukraine from Soviet control (and you are already aware of the millions of deaths in Ukraine resulting from Soviet policies); he tried to take advantage of them. They then deposed and imprisoned him, until, later in the war, when they thought they could take advantage of him, and released him hoping he would harass the Soviet forces.

and

PigletJohn Fri 11-Apr-14 01:40:28 However its my view that they were not members of the Nazi party, and were co-operating with Nazi Germany to try to gain advantage for their own ends, so in my view they were not.

Piglet, do you agree that the above statements minimise, trivialise and apoligise for Holocaust committed by the Bandera Nazis implying that their crimes were justified by Stalin's policies?

If you want to compare the number of people killed by Stalin and by Bandera, or which of them was worst, you had better start another thread. If you want to, you can include the question "do you approve of mass murderers". I doubt there will be much disagreement.

We have not yet dealt with the question of whether or not Stalin and Bandera should be considered Nazis. I have given my opinion, what's yours?

Piglet, do you agree that your latest message amounts to the denial of Holocaust.

Do you agree that you deny Holocaust committed by Bandera and minimise and apologies for his crimes implying they are justified by the policies of Stalin?

I think it is plainly clear that Piglet can't bring himself to acknowledge Holocaust by Bandera and continues to apologise for it by comparing with Stalin.

No, goat, you are talking absolute rubbish.

I hold in contempt all mass murderers, including Hitler, Stalin and Bandera.

Can you say the same?

Moving on from which, and returning to the question which you are evading and trying to obscure, do you consider that Stalin and Bandera, who both co-operated with Nazi Germany, were therefore Nazis?

I hold in contempt all mass murderers, including Hitler, Stalin and Bandera.

It took you a long time to say that but it doesn't answer my question whether you accept that Bandera was a Nazi in his own right and committed Holocaust?

Do you deny it or do you think it was justified by Stalin's crimes?

And yes, I agree they were psychopathic mass murders and I do hold them in contempt/

This is why I don't understand why he is an official national hero of Ukraine and why people are worshiping him.

How come Bandera is a hero, Piglet?

The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths

OUN is the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists
UPA is its armed wing, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army

This is a very interesting paper by a well-respected Swedish historian containing quotes from Bandera's OUN[b] publications that demonstrate he was not just a nationalist but actually a fully fledged fascist - many explicit references to keeping the Ukrainian race pure and other fascist notions, and also anti-Semitism.

• the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists was founded in 1929, long before Stalin-Ribentrop pact

• "“Fascism, National Socialism, Ukrainian nationalism, etc. are different national expressions of the same spirit,” wrote Iaroslav Orshan, an influential OUN ideologue.13 page 3"

The OUN slogans:
“The Nation Above Everything” taken quite literally,
“Ukraine for the Ukrainians.”
“treat enemies of Your Nation with hatred and ruthlessness.”

• In 1936 Stepan Bandera wrote: “...our idea in our understanding is so grand, that when we talk about its realization, not single individuals, nor hundreds, but millions of victims have to be sacrificed in order to realize it.”

• "Mixed marriages (Ukrainian-Polish, Ukrainian-Muscovite, Ukrainian-Magyar, Ukrainian-Jewish) will be banned, forming such unions will be made impossible. We regard their very existence and the making of such unions a crime of national treason."

-"“Ukrainians are those who are blood of our blood and bone of our bone. Only Ukrainians have the right to Ukrainian lands and Ukrainian names, and Ukrainian ideas.”
"
-"combat Jews as supporters of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime.”

• "“Ukraine for the Ukrainians! . . . Death to the Muscovite-Jewish

commune! Beat the commune, save Ukraine!” ”

-“ethnically cleansed totalitarian state, where all other political parties were to be banned. The OUN embarked on an eliminationist project to “purify” their nation of “alien” racial elements.

-“We are setting up a militia that will help remove the Jews and protect the population.”

-flyers, distributed in the first days of the German invasion,
urged the population: “Don’t throw away your weapons yet. Take them up. Destroy the enemy . . . People!—Know this!—Moscow, the Hungarians, the Jews—these are your enemies. Destroy them.”

Bandera and Stalin both co-operated with Nazi Germany. They both killed lots of people (Stalin, of course, many, many, many more).

You are obsessed with deciding if that means they should be described as Nazis.

I've told you my opinion, what's yours?

It is troubling how the slogans and sentiment at the recent rallies is similar to the Bandera UPA slogans. I can understand that people would genuinely feel threatened when the crowd in this video (without commentary) has 6 ministers in the current Ukrainian givernment, including security and defence.

The man with the megaphone shouts:

"Bandera and Shukhevych* are heroes of Ukraine!"
"They were fighting for our freedom!"
"Glory to Ukraine!"

"Death to muscovites, death to occupiers!"

"Death to muscoivites's supporters"

The man in brown hat shouts:
"Our land, Ukraine for Ukrainians"

--

• Shukhevych was the military commander of UPA, the military arm of the Ukraine Insurgence Army that perpetrated the genocides atrocities during the Nazi occupation

Sorry, wrong link

This one
The man with the megaphone shouts:

"Bandera and Shukhevych* are heroes of Ukraine!"
"They were fighting for our freedom!"
"Glory to Ukraine!"
"Glory to heroes!"

"Death to muscovites, death to occupiers!"

"Death to muscoivites's supporters"

The man in brown hat shouts:
"Our land, Ukraine for Ukrainians"

Have you decided to stop deciding if the title "Nazi" should be applied?

What's your answer about Stalin and Bandera?

I think it is plainly clear that Piglet can't bring himself to acknowledge Holocaust by Bandera and continues to apologise for it by comparing with Stalin.